CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:13 am

While it might be interesting to look for turbulence and inversion flows, a cine MRI is not the best way to check for an empty sella or CSF congestion in the optic sheath.

As a side note, what an MRI shows and what a radiologist sees are two different things. Nigel's friend Ray was in a motobike accident and his neck shows it. There is an excess curve in his neck due to the fact that he landed on his belly and his helmut most likely snapped his head backwards. He also has abnormal motion in neck flexion in that it stays in extension, and he badly damaged ligaments with infolding into the spinal canal. Nonetheless, according to the radiologist his images were fairly normal. It's amazing that most radiologists continue to marginalzie such gross structural damage and deformations of the spine. Many of you may remember that Costumenational was in a serious motorcycle accident and landed on his right side. This caused his head to snap to the left which resulted in a nasty tilt of his head to the left causing his C1 atlas vertebra to slide to the right and his C2 axis vertebra to rotate to the right. Acccording to the radiology reports his spine was normal. It was about as normal as the Leaning Tower of Pisa.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:02 am

I just viewed Dr. Arata's youtube presentation on Vagus Dysautonomia. While I don't agree with his theory I found it very interesting and it ties in beautifully with my next website page on the thalamus and hypothalamus which will be followed by a page on Endoscopic Third Ventriculostomy (ETV). As I mention in my book, after studying the design of the craniofacial bones, I surmized that bats, giraffes and whales use accessory pathways to drain the brain during extreme hydrodynamic challenges of head inversion and deep dives. Among other things, my guess is that bats use the optic and olfactory nerve routes to shunt CSF out of the cranial vault during inversion (ETV). Bats most likely use the third ventricle to shunt CSF into the optic nerve sheath. The third ventricle is surrounded by the thalamus and hypothalamus. The hydrodynamic challenge to humans is upright posture. Humans have developed ANS responses specifically due to the dramatic changes in blood flow to the head, which would otherwise be harmful to the brain. They also developed alternative drainage routes that drain into the VVP of the spine. Whales use the VVP similar to humans but in the complete opposite way.

The ANS signs Dr. Arata mentions in his presentation are fatigue, sleep interuption, thermal dysregulation, bowel and bladder dysfunction, AM headaches and cognitive impairment. While they are ANS signs they aren't specific Vagal Nerve signs. In contrast, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome or Orthostatic Hypotension are important signs closely related to vagal nerve dysfunction. Thus, Vagal Nerve Dysfuntion is more likely to cause POTS and orthostatic hypotension than the other symptoms mentioned above, which are more thalamic and hypothalamic.

The other problem with Dr. Arata's theory is that unless he is causing long lasting damage to the vagus nerve, venoplasty only causes low and temporary compression loads. The stimulus should stop shortly after the procedure. Additionally, compression of the vagus nerve by carotid sinus massage is known to cause vasovagal responses in sensitive individuals. Vasovagal responses include decreases in heart rate, respiration and blood pressure, as well as fainting. This would make the venoplasty contraindicated for patients with the dysautonomia seen in the MSA or what is sometimes still called the Shy-Drager variant of Parkinson's, which is often associated with orthostatic hypotension.

My theory is that the faulty cranial hydrodynamics in the third ventricle area is the cause dysautonomia in neurodegenerative diseases. My guess is that internal jugular venoplasty works on the ANS simply by increasing the drainage capacity of the cranial vault via the cavernous sinus. This would help to drain the thalamus and hypothalamus areas in the middle fossa of the cranial vault.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:59 am

I didn't find this quote above and found it on FB I added it to the discussion happening there;

Nigel Wadham, hey that's me, replied on FB,
Hi all, 3-4 of MY brain CELLS must HAVE been THINKING over NIGHT and VIEWING Dr.F's POST probably MEANS I WAS on A similar WAVE length.
If the Vagus nerve stimulation changes the symptom group I am of the view that it is because of a symbiotic relationship between the Vagus and the artery and vein it is contacting.
A feedback system/data capture to give the hypothalamus and the thalamus information on brain flow of blood. If there is issues the a default/fail-safe kicks in and the symptom group of dysautonomia occurs?
Mike Arata is there any data about the left or right or both sides involved from your data? Lack of stimulation/inputs may occur from one side, the dominant Jug?
We know that for instance the temperature sensing and BP knowledge happens in the similar region, yet we don't know the action.
Other sensing is known to happen there and we don't know how that generates the feedback or how it is processed and acted on.
I hear what Dr F is saying and the clues are there that there has to be a system of informing the brain with several supplies of data. Visual alone or temp alone or BP alone are not enough to make vital decisions such as heart rate or whether there is sufficient blood 'flowing' through the brain for a particular activity.
Having a flow issue can be compensated by collateral growth and flow and that data will be unavailable to the Vagus 'blood flow info system possibly', so there will be multiple pickups for info, where?
I don't think that the skull differences are going to be the only possibility, there is too much variation across cultures, from injury and ill health to be that simplistic an answer.
I think the systems of brain input and computation need to be understood first. By testing flows of CSF and Blood around the neck and skull regions we will see more to answer Dr. F's observations, yet there is still the grey area about the 'why' does the system function and 'how' to be understood it in depth.
https://www.facebook.com/Dr.Arata/posts ... tif_t=like

Regards,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Nigel,
Brain circulation is maintained in a relatively steady state by what is called the neurovascular myogenic autoregulatory reflex mechanism also known simpy as cerebral autoregulation. The chemo (O2/CO2) and baro (pressure) receptors are located in the cavernous and suboccipital cavernous sinus. Cerebral autoregulation and brain blood flow operate independantly of the rest of the body. The system is only indirectly effected by the vagus nerve. The other point to make regarding manipulation of the vagus nerve is that you can stimulate a nerve anywhere along its course and cell body but nerves are designed to work with sensors called receptors. In this regard, the left and right vagus use different locations for their receptors. The left vagus has receptors designed for high or systolic blood pressures located in the arch of the aorta and the carotid sinus where the internal and external carotid artery split. On the other hand, the right vagus has low diastolic receptors located in the lungs and lower chambers of the heart called the ventricles. The vagus nerve also picks up on drops in blood pressure throughout the body, as well as the organs, especially the liver and spleen which serve as reservoirs. The drop in pressure in the carotid sinus and arch or the aorta associated with upright posture inhibits the vagus and stimulates the sympathetic nerves to cause vasoconstriction. Propriorecptive signals from the muscles, especially, the legs also get into the act. Surgeons use pacemakers to control vasovagal syncope as well as to regulate slow heart rates called bradycardia and irregular rythyms called fibrillations.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:35 pm

Thanks Dr F,
I am getting the feeling that Mike's findings and PTA methods will only be a short term change in symptoms and that also is feedback I am getting elsewhere.
Have you heard more from Ray or Deb's? I have sent some messages but had no replies.
I get the feeling he and I will be looking for help together!
It seems that Sydney Australia will in future be the option if the Upright people there and Joe Ierano get up to speed now that Joe has met in person with Dr Rosa.

Regards,
Nigel

My post back to Mike earlier was;
Mike Arata what percentage of the blood flow travels through the jugular that you are having success with before and after?
It appears that the differences you are finding need to be verified;
a. from a known flow improvement/or change
b. calculated what volume change there is through that particular pathway
c. asses symptom improvements versus flows maintained over time to determine whether it is a vascular generated change or a nerve impulse, sensory change
d. determine if there are changes in the flows elsewhere in the system, one would expect a total improvement in flow, although it could be a redirection and the total flow remains the same
e. test with a technique such as Paulo's neck collar to check over time what the vascular component is in the treatment by PTA
f. find Neurologists and get the carrot under their noses!
https://www.facebook.com/Dr.Arata?ref=ts&fref=ts
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:21 pm

Your welcome Nigel,
One way or the other, in my opinion, venoplasty is part of the solution to faulty cranial hydrodynamics and poses far fewer complications. Moreover, I believe it can be improved and should be consideration for cases regardless of whether or not they have internal jugular problems. The fact that it may improve drainage of the middle fossa and deep structures of the brain is a potentially very significant finding. The challenge as I see it is to improve its effectiveness and durability, which may require stents. Unfortunately, as Dr. Arata pointed out, the jugular veins have inherent problems due to upright posture that predispose stents to clots from low or no flow. I have a few ideas for potential solutions. I may try and run some of them past my brother. As I mentioned before he writes software companies use to manufacture stents. I have tried before but it can be difficult to get through. He gets bogged down in computations. His eyes roll back in his head and his body goes into tremors. It looks like he will pass out as the counter cooling system of the cavernous sinus becomes overloaded and his brain begins to heat up and steam rises from the ears. As I have said before, it has been my experience from the start of my investigation, that the thickness of the human skull and its impermeability to new ideas is directly proportional to the intellect. Thankfully, I'm just average.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:46 pm

Very cleverly said Dr.
I saw last night several comments from Australians treated (PTA) in Aus that they are finding that when the jugs are PTA-ed and they 're-stenosis' that the findings have been twisted or 'kinked'/folded over jugs high up. The explanation from the IR's are that its natural to happen and that elasticity is an issue?
Interesting how in Aus there findings and thoughts are heading in a very different direction to Mike and different to Sal and others.
Too many assumptions from data and not enough focus on the actions that are occurring?

BTW, at the moment I notice that my neck locks or is ridding over bone, when I am shaving, looking right with my head slightly down and wanting to turn it back vertical!
All my symptoms have peaked at the moment and the dysautonomia group of symptoms plus cognitive/confusion/forgetfulness, vertigo, low/weak energy and big FATIGUE are happening.
The peak is building and I am on day 77 of two ABx's as well, and the third in a weeks time.(ABx Protocol for CPn)
All of this is likely to be the Herx/die off/endo-toxin effect, don't know?
The neck problems and VERY noisy spine on flexing and very weak mid spine/posture issues confuse the tripe out of me!!!!!!
Hence my interest in Mike's findings.

Have a great day, we are having Storms at present after no rain for weeks, Summer, yeah right!
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby Sharon » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:46 pm

Hello Nigel -

Interesting discussion you have over on your FB page. You asked for my thoughts....they would be speculative (which is not a good thing) and I tend to stay away from public forums.

That being said, I believe you have already come to a conclusion yourself:
I saw last night several comments from Australians treated (PTA) in Aus that they are finding that when the jugs are PTA-ed and they 're-stenosis' that the findings have been twisted or 'kinked'/folded over jugs high up. The explanation from the IR's are that its natural to happen and that elasticity is an issue?
Interesting how in Aus there findings and thoughts are heading in a very different direction to Mike and different to Sal and others.
Too many assumptions from data and not enough focus on the actions that are occurring?


As a reminder, Dr. Rosa is observing - he has made no claims, no assumptions. He is analyzing his data - until it is in pre-print for publication we will not know his conclusions (or until he presents at a conference). The Alliance is facilitating the sharing of these observations with others in the medical (CCSVI) community.

If you have not already read, you might be interested in reading an editorial authored by Dr. David Harshfield, neuro interventional radiologist and colleague of Dr. Rosa
http://www.contentdesigninc.com/clients ... ry2011.pdf


Take care,
Sharon
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:04 pm

Thanks Sharon :)
I must say a couple of things, I realise that I am 'brain dead' at the moment and it's probably not the best time for me to be public.
I hope that my intention was obvious enough, I was wanting all parties to talk and hopefully move the knowledge forward with some directions to move from.
Seems that is happening in all sorts of places and as Sal said to me this morning TiMS is the 'best/simplest forum'.

I must add that people like Dr. F are very important in this search and others out there 'doing it' like Sal are feeding the data back.

Sharon thank you and thanks to your team. I said this to Joan the other day and again today I see the difference your approach and guidance makes. Hope you are well!

Sleep time, 1.00pm I'm shattered,
Regards all, Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:58 pm

Hi all, Dr F does the body try to compensate when there is a problem with atlas alignment by posturing?
I am pondering if the body knows to rotate if for instance there is a problem with impeded flow due to the findings of Atlas alignment, eg the Dr Rosa trials with Upright MRI and if those people are compensating before and after treatments for instance. I guess you will have experimented yourself with this concept.

BTW I am off to see our local chiro John about my neck problems it is obvious there is a link to why I am going down hill. It has taken ages for me to be able to detect deficits in movement of my neck, I had good and free flexing that has now shown to be limited at the base of my skull primarily tilting to my right, there is no movement in the top couple of vertebra and they stay straight as opposed to the left I get a good curve right to the top. I think there are other movements that are effected as well. My spine in general is VERY noisy, so it is no doubt effected by the top misalignments.

Regards,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:02 pm

An after thought to my post above is the accumulation of inflammation when my spine is out and muscles are compensating seems to be a common re-occurrence and may be the issue.
I don't recall any reason for my neck to 'go out' as such and I have had progression of it getting 'noticeable' over weeks.

Edited: I also just recalled, some how, that I have had a C2 dorsal lesion sited a couple of years ago.

Over years this has been a pattern, there never seems to be a reason for the onset rather that I have growing symptoms and eventually realise that there is a structural cause. Which never seems to be able to be corrected even though I find the best of the best in the Land!
Just saying!

Regards,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:26 pm

I posted this on Michael Arata's fb site to prompt some more discussion, unfortunately he is not replying to anything, although he is still promoting and commenting on his service.

"Diagnosis of other types of dysautonomia is difficult, as the disorders are varied and mimic other diseases of the nervous system. "
From the article you referred us to Michael Arata ;
http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/a ... #diagnosis
Autonomic Dysfunction | Definition and Patient Education
www.healthline.com
Dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system (ANS) is known as dysautonomia. The autonomic nervous system regulates unconscious body functions, including heart rate, blood pressure, temperature regulation, gastrointestinal secretion, and metabolic .


Nigel Wadham wrote,
It will be interesting to get feed back from around the World as people request being tested for Dysautonomia.
Today I received feedback from our MS nurse who works part time at the Local Hospital, that,
a. the Health system doesn't do testing for dysautonomia by ECG or by blood pressure testing, and they never have been asked to before
b. the Health System Neuro whom I last saw was also asked for a referral to enable testing as the request would have to come from a Specialist, the reply was that it's not normal practice for MS patients and that I have requested 'off label' tests before. (I do have a positive result for CPn and the Neuro has made no comment what so ever, I travelled overseas to see Dr Paul Thibault in Australia to achieve an understanding and treatment for the co-incidence of CPn and MS)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:29 am

Nigel,
Misalignments in the spine do cause the body to compensate with changes in posture but not posturing. Technicaly speaking, posturing is a serious neurological sign seen in epilepsy and traumatic brain injuries for example. Misalignments also cause pain avoidance such as antalgia leans and they can cause fixation that can alter posture and limit normal movement.

It is impossible to fully correct many conditions of the spine due to a host of underlying associated structure problems such as damage and degeneration in the cartilage and connective tissues.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:42 am

As far as dyautonomia is concerned, while diagnostic tests are somewhat lacking due to the complexity of the system, the signs and symptoms are fairly obvious. Classic signs and symptoms of dysautonomia include problems with regulation of vital signs such as heart rate, respiration and thermal regulation. Orthostatic hypertenison, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, bradycardia, Raynauds syndrome, incontinence are good examples. It is my contention that dysautonomia can be caused by faulty cranial hydrodynamics in the third ventricle and surrounding cisterns.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:32 am

Many of you have that have contacted me have fascinating cases. If you don't feel uncomfortable about sharing your history you should post your case here for others to see and learn from rather than sending me a PM. This will allow my reply to reach more people.
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