CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby centenarian100 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:23 pm

NZer1 wrote:THE LIPID HYPOTHESIS
Corthals believes that the primary cause of MS can be traced to transcription factors in cell nuclei that control the uptake, breakdown, and release of lipids (fats and similar compounds) throughout the body. Disruption of these proteins, known as peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs), causes a toxic byproduct of "bad" cholesterol called oxidized LDL to form plaques on the affected tissue. The accumulation of plaque in turn triggers an immune response, which ultimately leads to scarring. This is essentially the same mechanism involved in atherosclerosis, in which PPAR failure causes plaque accumulation, immune response, and scarring in coronary arteries.


This is an interesting idea. There are some reports of an association of lipid markers with multiple sclerosis activity. For instnace:

In one report on patients on beta-interferons...

1) Higher LDL is associated with new T2 lesions
2) Higher free thyroxine is associated with enhancing lesions
3) Higher HDL is associated with deseasonalised 1,25-dihydroxy vitamin D3

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23595944

There has been some association of t-cell function with lipid "rafts". For instance, one investigator reports and 7-keto cholesterol reduces the "lipid order" of the cell membrance and reduces t-cell activation.

Source: http://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/full/ ... /imt.13.19

A cross sectional study suggests a difference in [peripheral] mononuclear cell membrane composition and EDSS functional system scores (sensory and cerebral scores)

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23449275

In MS patients, oxidized-LDL correlated with higher EDSS

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23478275

In another cross sectional study, high LDL, higher total cholesterol, and higher triglycerides were associated with higher EDSS (HDL with no effect on EDSS). T2 lesion volume was not associated with these variables. The authors speculate that there may be a link between the vascular endotheleum of the blood brain barrier and multiple sclerosis, possibly through extravasation of immune cells. They also feel that cerebral hypoperfusion may contribute.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228782/

Of course, Dr. Swank found a benefit of a low saturated fat diet in MS [nonrandomized/unblinded trial; possible recall bias]

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1973220

Smoking [a known cardiovascular risk factor] is also associated with worse prognosis in MS.

"In the context of autoimmunity, the various risk factors for MS are frustratingly incoherent," Corthals said. "But in the context of lipid metabolism, they make perfect sense."


This goes to far I think. I wouldn't say that the autoimmune risk factors are "incoherent." It's just that no single risk factor has great significance. The same, I would argue, is true with markers of lipid metabolism. I don't think it's really fair to asay that the association of lipid metabolism of MS "make[s] perfect sense."

The problem is that a lot of the cardiovascular risk factors are not related to multiple sclerosis, so it seems silly to create an analogy to atherosclerosis.

For instance, advanced age and male sex are not linked to MS.
Hypertension is not linked to MS
coronary artery disease to our knowledge is not strongly linked to MS.

There is evidence to suggest that there is no association of premorbid lipid intake and development of multiple sclerosis.
For instance, the massive Harvard nursing study (undoubtedly a higher quality study than any listed above) revealed no significant effect, except possibly for linolenic acid (nonsignificant)

source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11117615

The benefit of statins is also questionable, as studies have had mixed results. Check out the following if you have time:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20626428

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15145635

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19487658

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19506220

The most famous of the trials is the STAYCIS trial at UCSF (statins to prevent conversion of CIS to MS) which failed to meet its primary endpoint

Source: Waubant E, Pelletier D, Mass M, Cohen J, Kita M, Cross A, Bar-Or A, Vollmer T, Racke MK, Stüve O, Atorvastatin therapy in patients with Clinically Isolated Syndrome (CIS): the STAyCIS study. 134th Annual Meeting, American Neurological Assocation; Baltimore, MD. 2010.

The SIMCOMBIN trial (statins in MS patients on beta interferons) was also negative.

I wish that we could get some very high quality preclinical evidence about what lipid profile changes are associated with multiple sclerosis to plan interventions. I think that this is very promising.
If someone is aware of such data, please let me know.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:34 pm

I had my first spinal decompression treatment om the Cox 7 table this afternoon. It felt so good to be stretched. The feeling in my hands, arms, legs and feet became normal while the chiro was doing it. I noticed I was tolerating the heat much better afterwards. Sitting straighter. And inexpensive $45. Will be having it done twice a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays as those are the days he works at this clinic.
A big TY Dr Flanagan for all your help.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby David1949 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:24 pm

Dania
I haven't been around TIMS much lately, so I'm not familiar with this subject. May I ask what this technique is? Also what is it doing for you?

It sounds a bit like traction. I had that two years ago for a herniated disk. It seemed to help and eventually the pain from the herniated disk was completely eliminated. I stopped getting traction once the pain was resolved, but I often wonder if it would have helped with my MS symptoms if I had kept it up.

Please keep us posted on your results.

Thanks

dave
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:06 pm

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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:17 am

Your welcome Dania.

To answer David1949's question, there is no comparison between traditional traction and Flexion-Distraction. Flexion-Distraction tables can flex during distraction (traction). Flexion opens the intervertebral foramen in the rear and stretches the posterior aspect of the discs. The FD method also isolates the segments to be worked on as well as doing general traction. Pumping the spine with rhythmical FD creates a pressure gradient that helps move blood and CSF in the spinal canal. Moving blood and CSF in the spinal canal helps to move blood and CSF in the cranial vault. The Cox FD tables can also add side bending, rotation and circumduction to the Flexion-distraction. The Cox 7 table has a fully functional headpiece similar to the tailpiece. The only downside is that the prone position increases pressure on the abdominal veins which puts back pressure and the vertebral veins. One of the FD tables I used had a drop away abdominal section for pregnant women. I used the drop away to decrease pressure on the abdominal veins, as well as to allow repositioning a herniated disc. There are other good tables but the Cox 7 and 8 table are the best in my opinion.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:33 am

hi dr. flanagan, great to see the people and hear about those gaining new knowledge and acceptance and actually being helped by your thread here at tims and elsewhere. it's getting there, much like a thunder storm. people hear the rumble in the distance and don't pay much attention--just kinda hope it goes around them or blows over them "much like main stream med." has reacted to all the workings and knowledge and "truth" that you and some other greats have been putting out there for quite a while. well, the rumbles haven't went around and it didn't blow over. they're turning into thunder boomers not to be taken so lightly. now when lightning strikes--that's what we're waiting for. that'll get their attention big time and i can't wait. when mainstream med.'s lights go out i don't think they have a good back up generator to rely on and not as reliable as they are thinking. "look at what this short time has stirred up." i think less and less are buying into the attempted brain washing.

question: you had said that if you were treating dania it would be pretty much the same as me. you had told me about the cox table previously but i could not find anyone near enough. i got a lead hope it pans out. there is the difference of the cervical bone spurs between dania and i. should this pan out are there any precautions for me concerning this? i know you said gentle neck traction could be tried but i just want to check i don't want add insult to injury in any way. do you think where the spurs are located it could possibly get them away from the cord enough to help?

thank you
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:53 am

Blossom,
You could benefit from FD but the Cox7 and 8 table models with the FD headpiece are better. There are other good tables such as the AirFlex by Hill Laboratories, Williams-Zeneith 100 with FD headpieces. You would do better with a table with a FD headpiece and tail section. The only precaution is to let the doctor know that cervical flexion causes weakness and Lhermittes sign in your case and that extension improves strength. Other than that, the table would help mobilize the bad disc with the bone spurs and reduce inflammation and edema in the area. It would also help move blood and CSF flow past the obstruciton. It would also help your low back and legs and move CSF out of the lumbar cistern and reduce pressure on the sacral plexus and bladder nerves. If I were treating you, I would probably prepare you with diathermy, hot packs or infrared heat to relax muscles and conncective tissues, as well as open up circulation before FD.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:52 am

Dr F, I have had this thought filling my atrophy spaces in my brain for some time now and the talk above has prompted me to ask for your thoughts please.
The common link to most of us regulars has been injury and inflammation and for me the added infection issues.
My thought from the comments above about inflammation and table treatments etc, is that the lipid system must be overloaded removing all the by products of the issues, such as toxins, dead cells, wastes etc.
If we had a history with diets, Vit D levels, Magnesium levels, vascular insufficiency, CSF flow decreased and de oxygenated slow blood flow through the brain then the lipid system has been taxed for some time.

Could the dysfunctioning/over taxed lipid system be the link pin in MS and degenerative diseases at the 'cause' level and these other factors the 'compounders/co-incidences' leading to full blown MS, or Parkinsons or Alzheimers with diseases like Fibro or Celiacs being dx'ed leading up to the big event?

Thoughts any and everyone please
:)
Nigel

Even cholesterol levels are shown to be hi at first clinical MS symptoms and advance with MS progression in all PwMS studied by BNAC recently.
The thalamus atrophy has high cholesterol cells counts and ON cell testing shows hi cholesterol again from BNAC recently.
Cholesterol levels and plaques in strokes and clogging of capillary beds in the brain, levels in Heart attacks.
Bacterial intracellular infections change/alter DNA in immune systems and also adhesion factors in endothelial linings of veins and the BBB itself all interconnected with cholesterol transfers because cholesterol plays such an important role in cells.
Lipid system involvement and overtaxed in many regions and functions?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:37 am

NZer1 wrote:...Could the dysfunctioning/over taxed lipid system be the link pin in MS and degenerative diseases at the 'cause' level and these other factors the 'compounders/co-incidences' leading to full blown MS, or Parkinsons or Alzheimers with diseases like Fibro or Celiacs being dx'ed leading up to the big event?...


Not likely. Suffice it to say that myelin, which is a lipid made from cholesterol is very sensitive to ischemia. It can also sensitive to pressure and can degenerate due to abnormal tension and compression loads.

I would like to stay on topic on this thread, which is about CCSVI and CCVBP. It makes it easier for new patients to follow.

My next post on Wordpress should be out later today. The article compares several different types of hydrocephalus in children and adults and their causes. It also discusses the potential role of hydrocephalus in brain atrophy. Hydrocephalus used to be considered a childhood condition. Children and adults, however, are predisposed to hydrocephalus due to the design of the skull, spine and circulatory system of the brain and cord.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:36 am

thank you dr. flanagan.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:05 pm

Your welcome Blossom. The link below is to my other favorite table. It's a tough choice but I actually prefer some of the options on it compared to the Cox 7 and 8 tables. As you can see in the picture it has a lumbar drop away, which is good for allowing herniated discs to be repositioned anteriorly using the force of gravity along with FD and axial traction. It's great for pregnant women, as well as oversized and overweight patients. A solid section increases abdominal pressue which increases back pressure on the vertebral veins. The table also comes with pelvic elevation options, as well as thoracic rotation and fully functional head and tailpiece sections. The automatic FD and axial traction free the hands for CSF pumping techniques. I will be discussing these tables more on my website as it grows. They are terrific for treating a multitude of problems in the full spine.

http://www.williamshealthcare.com/100-zenithfullspineflexiondistractionelevation.aspx
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:22 pm

I should also mention that these tables are only as good as the hands that operate them. I have seen doctors use them who appear to have no idea what they are doing. They do a few pumps on the tailpiece and send the patient home. Many patients with neurodegenerative conditions have complex issues. Chiari malformations, cysts, syrinxes, segmential tethering, adverse mechanical tension in the brain, cord and nerve roots, obstructions to blood and CSF flow, as well as a host of other considerations, need more experienced and knowlegabel professionals familiar with these conditions.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:42 pm

uprightdoc wrote:
NZer1 wrote:...Could the dysfunctioning/over taxed lipid system be the link pin in MS and degenerative diseases at the 'cause' level and these other factors the 'compounders/co-incidences' leading to full blown MS, or Parkinsons or Alzheimers with diseases like Fibro or Celiacs being dx'ed leading up to the big event?...


Not likely. Suffice it to say that myelin, which is a lipid made from cholesterol is very sensitive to ischemia. It can also sensitive to pressure and can degenerate due to abnormal tension and compression loads.

I would like to stay on topic on this thread, which is about CCSVI and CCVBP. It makes it easier for new patients to follow.

My next post on Wordpress should be out later today. The article compares several different types of hydrocephalus in children and adults and their causes. It also discusses the potential role of hydrocephalus in brain atrophy. Hydrocephalus used to be considered a childhood condition. Children and adults, however, are predisposed to hydrocephalus due to the design of the skull, spine and circulatory system of the brain and cord.


Point taken Dr F, you want to stay with the mechanical involvement and managing symptoms rather than look at the whole picture of interlocking issues that finally express as 'disease'.

:)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:04 pm

Thanks Nigel. I don't believe you meant what you said.

I think you missed the point. There are many points and different positions and theories to discuss regarding neurodegenerative diseases. I cover the role of myelin breakdown and lipid peroxidation in the glutamate cascade in my book. I don't want to discuss the minutia of the glutamate cascade, which is a big topic that ties into inflammation as well. I have a great deal more to say about many related topics such as migraines and autoimmune-inflammatory conditions that I won't be covering on this thread.

I don't mind wandering off topic a bit but I don't want to drift too much like the last post on fats that was way off course. It makes it more difficult for new people to follow. I would like to mostly focus this particular thread on the the role of structural problems in the skull and spine in faulty fluid mechanics in the cranial vault and spinal canal. My theory is that humans are predisposed to neurodegenerative diseases due to the unique design of the skull, spine and circulatory system of the brain and cord. Structural problems in the skull and spine can cause chronic ischemia, edema and normal pressure hydrocephalus, which can lead to neurodegenerative conditions. My role here is to explain my theory and answer questions for those who are interested and may find it helpful.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:44 pm

You're very right Dr F, I am saying things lately that are out of line and out of charter. I'm sorry.

I enjoy and see the benefits of your approach both personally and in the posts of others.

Keep up the great work! :)
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