CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Mon May 06, 2013 2:21 pm

Dr F, I hear what you have been saying about infections and disease, particularly de-generative diseases you have written about.

The regular bottom line is that the infection and the disease exist together, the infection can't be said to start the disease, and also the disease doesn't happen with out the infection.

My reading of research tells me that often the reason for the co-incidence is that the bacterial infection modifies the immune system and that destabilises the balance of many body systems and functions.

So saying that the infection didn't cause the disease is arguable and won't ever be resolved as causative or not.

The treatment of the infection is most likely to improve the symptom management, what that will do for the disease is going to be a wait and see situation due to the damage over time.

So treat the infection no matter what and manage the symptoms that are left with an open mind!

I struggle with people righting off the bacterial involvement in any disease, it is too common that there are bacteria and disease in the same equation! Bacterial involvement in Health is not understood, full stop! If you can eliminate one element of unbalance that should not be there or should not be at the volume it exists, then you are moving towards a level playing field.

Bacteria are more evolved and rapid at evolving than most other life forms on the Planet and we don't have a Healthy respect for their control of Humanity!

A prime situation is atrophy of the Thalamus and hypothalamus chain, can depletion of blood or oxygen or cellular nutrients or waste build-up be the only factors, I think not, the unhealthy environment that is created by these factors creates the ideal environment for bacteria to thrive and spread. Once established any where in the body the bacteria are on the look out for the next area or region to use as the host of a new colonisation by the bacteria. Whether intra-cellular or not the bacteria are a step ahead of us, modifying us to suit them!

From my bacteria and I,
;)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Mon May 06, 2013 7:58 pm

** Dr F how can I prove by imagining if my Atlas is 'straight' or 'rotated' ?

Even though I have been adjusted by 'the best in the Land' here as well as many others I want to be able to 'see for myself' that it is correct as is said by the experts, rather than purely 'their impression'.

;)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Mon May 06, 2013 8:14 pm

uprightdoc wrote:G'day Fatigue Central,
The garden and yard work are going well. We got our potatoes planted yesterday and I am working on a dwarf white clover no maintenance lawn. I have been a fan and experimenting with xeriscaping for years.

Many of the signs and symptoms seen in MS are related to dysfunction of the thalamus and hypothalamus. The thalamus and hypothalamus are suceptible to compromised blood and CSF flow. They are also susceptible to tension, compression and shear stresses due to their location in the core and on the bottom of the brain.


for what it's worth--to connecting dots--to this all.

i have tried different things one being something called "body
talk" . i did xx '$ that i could afford. i did rest better and if money was not a factor i would have liked to taken it further as with anything that helps even a little it's out of pocket. anyhoo, the "thalamus and hypothalamus" were brought up frequently. not that i'm promoting anything good or bad about body talk it's just that this was brought up frequently as were other things dr. flanagan speaks of. pretty interesting in a way. at that time i wasn't even aware tims existed or dr. flanagan. and all those were, were words.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue May 07, 2013 4:47 am

Hello Cheer,
I didn't think that you were advocating for CSF shunts. I just wanted to clarify the current challenges neursurgeons face when considering shunts for NPH and other neurodegenerative diseases. The challenges are similar to those for using venoplasty and stents. The success rate for CSF shunts, venoplasty and venous stents can be improved and the failure rate decreased with better diagnosis to determine who is the most likely to benefit, as well as consideration of all the available options for treating drainage problems.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue May 07, 2013 5:00 am

NZer1 wrote:... how can I prove by imagining if my Atlas is 'straight' or 'rotated' ?

Even though I have been adjusted by 'the best in the Land' here as well as many others I want to be able to 'see for myself' that it is correct as is said by the experts, rather than purely 'their impression'...


Specific Upper Cervical chiroprators prefer base posterior or vertex views to show rotational strains of the craniocervical junction. Dr. Rosa is currently using MRI, to show rotational strains.

Upper cervical problems aren't always associated with significant misalignments. As in Chiari Malformations, it isn't the degree of descent or the degree of misalignment that is relevant. What is relevant is whether or not is affecting nerves or blood and CSF flow. Costumenational's mother has a relatively minor misalignment in her upper cervical spine that I suspect is causing a relatively minor Chiari 0 or 1 at best, resulting in major progressive neurological problems. The design of her cranial vault predisposes her to problems due to decreased capacity of the posterior fossa. She may also have a slightly smaller foramen magnum. This means that she has less tolerance for upper cervical misalignments and Chiari malformations/CTE.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue May 07, 2013 5:09 am

Nigel,
The so called best chiropractors in NZ that you have seen have been very disappointing to me in their examination and treatment methods.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue May 07, 2013 5:25 am

Hello Blossom,

I can't tell you how happy I am to hear that you located a doctor nearby with a Cox 7 table. You knocked that one out of the park. You must have called many offices but it was well worth the effort. Barring surgery to remove the bone spurs, it is by far the least invasive, safest and best option for you. It may even negate the need for surgery in the future. If nothing else, you will feel much better getting decompressed. It will also significantly help to heal, rehabilitate and maintain the health of the brain, cord and spine.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Tue May 07, 2013 1:21 pm

uprightdoc wrote:Nigel,
The so called best chiropractors in NZ that you have seen have been very disappointing to me in their examination and treatment methods.


Dr F it is worse than you are aware.

I went to John last Thursday and the appointment goes,
I go into his room of which he has three available, I place a face tissue on the flat table and lie face down and wait for him to come through from his last patient.
He arrives after about 5 mins and says hello, and starts to palpitate the sacrum region and checks leg length by bending both knees and checking height of ankles when vertical. By this time I have said hello and started to say that I had another fall. By this time John has wandered over to his desk and picked up the wedges for hip tilt. He places them and listens to my very brief few words to say that I have a neck pain issue and very noisy mid spine. So he says I will leave you for a few minutes with the wedges and be back in a moment or two.
So after about 10 mins (he has seen someone else in this time) he returns removes the wedges checks the leg lengths again by knee bend, then palpitates from the sacrum up and finds that T4 is out and uses the activator. He asks me to sit at the end of the table and with one hand on the top of my skull and one at my neck he checks basic neck movement.
I manage to get out a few words and show him the vertical muscle line at C2 where I am having pain and get to say that it is a common problem for me. So he then asks me to assume the position on his other table with the drop neck section and sets me up for an adjustment with me on my right side. Does the adjustment and is most impressed with himself and says to stay on the table for a few minutes more to let it settle. He then says sorry I have to keep going and I will see you next week and hopefully we can talk some more.
I'm stunned that that is it, and it is the same each time of about 20 times I have been. This is why I want more than an opinion from John, to be honest I think I know more about the symptom and disease aspect of his trade than he does. The sad part is that John is the only local Chiro, there are four, who has been of any help with my mobility. When I tell John about Scott Rosa's findings I get a blank stare and he says that the subluxation issues are what is helping rather than any Vascular or CSF changes. I am left stunned mullet by the replies I get, I have even sent emails of links to papers for John to ponder, many times, and still no change in his opinion of Chiropractic benefit.

So to have imaging done that gives detail and more understanding is what I want. I don't want to have to go to Australia for an Upright MRI when they don't have the experience, or the MRI program that Scott Rosa uses or the specific neck magnets for either cervical MRI or Xray.
Checking for Chiari is one of my goals and the atlas imaging has been an ongoing dream!
The Radiologists in NZ that I have been told are the best of the field for neck imaging and reading MRI for Chiari, who I have contacted, are less informed than I am!

Frustration...., I've heard of that!
;)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue May 07, 2013 1:43 pm

I feel your pain. It sounds like he is stuck in the past and not interested in science or learning. It floors me after so many years that it is still so hard to get the profession to get involved in the research. I have run into many mental dullards. There is no excuse for radiologists not being familiar with the current research on acquired Chiari 0 and 1. On the other hand, you do know quite a bit, which is why I suggested you do a presentation at the NZ college on MS, CCSVI, CCVBP, upright posture, VVP, Chiari, CSF flow, bacteria etc. Don't worry about knowing it all. You are way ahead of the class.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Tue May 07, 2013 2:02 pm

This mornings interesting find!

Antibiotics costing just £114 may cure chronic back pain in 40% of patients in medical breakthrough 'worthy of a Nobel Prize'
40% of lower back pain cases are caused by a previously unknown bacteria
Can be treated with antibiotics instead of invasive surgery currently used
Spinal expert describes findings as 'a huge breakthrough, a game-changer'
By FIONA MACRAE


Peter Hamlyn (pictured) says the findings are the 'stuff of Nobel Prizes'

Hundreds of thousands of people living with crippling back pain could be cured - by a simple and inexpensive course of antibiotics.
In a breakthrough described as being worthy of a Nobel prize, scientists have shown that many cases of severe, long-term back ache are caused by bacteria – and the bugs can be zapped by a three-month course of pills costing just £114.
Patients who were in so much pain that they had to give up work have thanked the researchers for giving them their life back.
Hanne Albert, the Danish scientist who made the discovery, said almost half of those with chronic lower back pain could benefit.
This works out at more than half a million Britons, including many who are in the prime of life.
Dr Albert said: ‘These are mums and dads in the middle of an active working life.
‘These are pillars of society, they care for their parents and for their children.
‘They will be able to play with their children, instead of just sitting and watching them play.’
An estimated four in five Britons suffer back problems and some point in their life and the condition is behind more GP visits each year than any condition, other than the common cold.
The NHS spends more than £1billion a year on treating it, including around £500million on surgery, while sick days and long-term disability cost the economy at least £3.5billion annually in lost productivity.
Many hard-to-treat cases are caused by slipped discs – where wear and tear, a car crash, heavy lifting or other problem causes a piece of the spongy tissue that cushions the bones of the spine to spill out, causing pain in the back and legs.

More...
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Most people quickly recover but, in some, the pain persists and even major surgery is not completely effective.
Dr Albert, working with colleagues from Birmingham, believes that often this persistent pain is caused not by damaged disc by rogue bacteria that have infiltrated it.
The researcher began by examining tissue taken from discs of people whose back pain was so bad they had had spinal surgery.
Around half tested positive for bacteria, with a bug that normally causes acne predominant.

The researchers have discovered that a previously unknown bacterial infection is the cause of many people's chronic lower back pain
The researchers then allocated 162 men and women who were in ‘relentless’ back pain to a 100-day course of the antibiotic Bioclavid or a placebo.
In contrast to the placebo, the antibiotic greatly cut pain and disability.
For instance, a year on, those who had taken the drug said they’d experienced 64 hours of pain in the previous month. Those on placebo had racked up 200 hours of pain.
And those who had taken drug took just 19 sick days – compared with 45 by those on placebo, the European Spine Journal reports.
Dr Albert, of the University of Southern Denmark, described the improvement as ‘amazing’ and said the patients were effectively cured.
She added: ‘I can’t tell you how many people have given me hugs and told me I have given them their life back.’
It is thought that in these people, the slipped disc gradually had healed itself. However, they remained in pain due to the Propionibacterium acnes bug.
It normally causes acne but is also found in the mouth and pushed into the circulation by tooth brushing.

Almost half of all people with chronic lower back pain could be treated with a simple course of antibiotics
In those who have slipped a disc, it worms its way into the damaged disc, where it produces acid which corrodes the spine, causing fresh and often excruciating pain.
Peter Hamlyn, the University College Hospital London surgeon who has successfully given the antibiotic to patients here, said doctors must now rethink their understanding of lower back pain.
He added: ‘More work needs to be done but make no mistake, this is a turning point, a point where we will have to re-write the textbooks.
‘It is the stuff of Nobel prizes.’
Dr Albert is now educating GPs, doctors and physiotherapists on how to spot those whose pain is caused by the bacteria.
She said: ‘I don’t want surgery for these people. I don’t want them to eat morphine. I want them to be cured.’
However, the treatment is only for those in severe pain.
And with antibiotics only helping around 40 per cent of those whose with chronic lower back pain, she stresses that people mustn’t self-medicate.
Professor Laura Piddock, a University of Birmingham microbiologist, agreed that accurate diagnosis is essential.
Otherwise, patients would be needlessly taking drugs that could increase rates of antibiotic resistance.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... Prize.html

I think if they search more for other types of bacteria such as CPn they will be surprised even more!

;)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Tue May 07, 2013 7:52 pm

uprightdoc wrote:Hello Blossom,

I can't tell you how happy I am to hear that you located a doctor nearby with a Cox 7 table. You knocked that one out of the park. You must have called many offices but it was well worth the effort. Barring surgery to remove the bone spurs, it is by far the least invasive, safest and best option for you. It may even negate the need for surgery in the future. If nothing else, you will feel much better getting decompressed. It will also significantly help to heal, rehabilitate and maintain the health of the brain, cord and spine.


thank you dr.flanagan, i am anxious to get there as soon as i can too.
when i was previously looking and calling around i saw no adds for the table so had to keep asking as i called. no luck and give it up. then when following your suggestions to "dania" and you saying she and i could both possibly benefit. she and i are the only ones that positioning and the head tilting effected strength etc. that i had come across. i'm sure there's more.

dania had posted dr. cox's utube here--"thank you dania" that with a little searching i came across the listinggs of cox table chiro.'s. i put in my zip and this chiro. pop's up right in my town. unbelieveable-i don't know how i missed him before unless he just came back here. anyway, got him now. i hope he's good.

this link then punch doctors-

http://www.coxtechnic.com/doctors/the-cox-table-model-8
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed May 08, 2013 2:12 am

Nigel,
That was the worst rubbish I have read yet. The doctor should get educated about how other professionals effectively treat low back pain. Chiropractors successfully treat most cases of low back pain without the risks of drugs, antibiotics or surgery. Aside from mechanical causes, among other things, low back pain is also associated with kidney, bladder, colon and menstrual problems. The doctor should be more discriminating in his examination and diagnosis.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed May 08, 2013 2:25 am

You got lucky Blossom. It must be the Irish in you and Dania.

I looked previously and the doctor wasn't listed but I looked under your town. I am a big fan of Dr. Jim Cox, his table and his protocols, but his website is terrible for finding doctors who have Flexion-distraction tables never mind a Cox Flexion-distraction table. Forget about finding doctors with the latest Models 7 and 8 that have the Flexion-distraction headpiece. The site is even worse for finding qualified doctors. Being listed on the site means absolutely nothing. There are two other good tables such as the Zeneith 100 and Hill Lab AirFlex with cervical headpieces. I prefer the first two. There may be many qualified doctors with good tables but you won't find them on the Cox table website.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed May 08, 2013 2:59 am

uprightdoc wrote:Nigel,
That was the worst rubbish I have read yet. The doctor should get educated about how other professionals effectively treat low back pain. Chiropractors successfully treat most cases of low back pain without the risks of drugs, antibiotics or surgery. Aside from mechanical causes, among other things, low back pain is also associated with kidney, bladder, colon and menstrual problems. The doctor should be more discriminating in his examination and diagnosis.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... rtebrae%3F

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... f+efficacy

The two peer reviewed papers indicate that there is some reality in the discussion. And this article reviewing the finding does bring new information as well.
http://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/

Maybe Chiropractors have some things to learn just like the rest of us!

My personal experience tells me that bacteria do infect injury sites of the spine and treating the infection aggravates those sites.

;)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed May 08, 2013 5:02 am

Grabb and Smith's Plastic Surgery 2007 Chapter 74 - Pressure Sores
JOHN D. BAUER, JOHN S. MANCOLL, AND LINDA G. PHILLIPS

"It is known that bacterial counts increase in compressed areas. Robson and Krizek quantified the effect of pressure on bacterial count, showing that incisions created in areas of applied pressure and inoculated with known concentrations of organisms allowed for a 100-fold greater bacterial growth than in areas not subjected to pressure. The proposed mechanisms include impaired lymphatic function, ischemia, and impaired immune function."

Have these experts considered other options currently available other than surgery or antibiotics?

I suggest we do honest comparative studies on the medical surgical and antibiotic approach versus alternative health care professional approaches to the treatment and the lifetime management of low back pain.

In addition to pumping fluids in and out of herniated and degenerated cartilage and joints, as well as stretching connective tissues, flexion-distraction tables move and relieve blood, lymph and CSF stasis that cause pathogens to increase in compressed and inflammed edematous areas. Antibiotics don't do anything remotely similar.
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