CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:08 pm

They are self administered Touch for Health procedures. Touch for Health uses Corny Kinesiology.

Zipping up is running your finger up your concecption vessel meridian from the pubic bone to the lower lip.
Switcing on is rubbing the end point of the Kidney meridian (K27).
Tuning in is done by pulling on your ears (auricular therapy).

http://www.touch4health.com/techniques.html
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:31 am

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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:44 am

This is a terrific old study Dania in that it specifically studies whiplash as a cause of MS. But it overlooks many things and fails to connect the dots.

As good as it is it misses many key points such as what we already know about traumatic brain injuries. The same mechanisms apply to the cord. Certain types of traumatic head and brain injuries such as getting hit hard in the back or the front of the head can cause tissues and fluids in the brain to accelerated and decelerate at different speed causing shear stresses that can tear tissues. The brain also bounces around inside the vault which can result in bruising. The immediate outcome is the acute injury. Acute injuries can cause immediate sometime life threatening injuries, brain bleeds and high intracranial pressure and coma. They can also result in permanent scar tissue like MS lesions. Whiplash of the neck and lower spine causes massive violent blood and CSF inversion flows in the spinal VVP and cranial dural sinuses. Massive inversion flows in the dural sinuses can easily reach the supratentorial, perivenitricular and perivenular areas. I suspect the areas they reach is influenced by the designs of the cranial vault, dural sinuses, and angles of the brainstem etc. Whiplash and inversion flows also strain the attachments of the brain and cord via myodural fascial and dentate ligament connections to skull and spine. Acute lesions are a sign of ischemia or edema. Sclerotic lesions are signs of permanent scars. Radiologists can usually tell the difference. Whiplash injuries can also injure the spine causing permanent damage and repercussions to neurovascular tunnels in the skull and spine.

The section on the studies showing a connection between spondylosis, lesions and their location is what Blossom has. As I recall, Blossom's problems started when she slipped and fell hard on her knees. Unfortunately, I don't think it qualifies as a whiplash injury so we can't include Blossom in these types of studies. Blossom also has an almost but not quite a cervical myelopathy with lesions as I recall but she doesn't have lesions in her brain so she doesn't quite have MS. She does, however, have what qualifies as possible or probable MS - supposedly. On the other hand, she does reports that her conditon gets worse when she tips her head forward. It also causes L'Hermitte's sign. Unfortunatly, the motion is too slow to qualify for trauma. So my unequivocal diagnosis is that Blossom may have sustained some sort of whiplash-type injury that may have aggravated an almost, but not quite, cervical myelopathy that could be causing her possible but not quite probable MS signs and symptoms.

Researchers are still focused on the acute aspects of the injury, the blood brain barrier and the lesions. Lesions and their locations are a sign of problems but they aren't necessarily the cause of many of the signs and symptoms. The chronic aspects of the problem may be in connections of the brain and cord to the skull and spine.
Last edited by uprightdoc on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:06 am

Compare the study on the role of whiplash in MS to the previous study Dania posted on degenerative conditions of the cervical spine. See if you can connect the dots in signs and symptoms. Patients like Blossom are caught between diagnostic categories.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3261239/

One of the conclusions of the study was that:
Manipulation has not been shown to be clinically effective in patients with cervical pain and that they may actually be dangerous as spinal core and vascular injuries have been reported and should be avoided in most patients.

This is a typical broad categorization of the many different techniques used by chiropractors that shows that medical doctors are for the most part clueless about what chiropractors do such as: specific upper cervical, craniosacral, flexion-distraction, drop techniques percussion hammers, Corny Kinesiology etc.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:31 pm

Morning,
Dr F I read what you have written in the posts above and I have also read these papers and similar ones regarding the trauma/injury commencement of degenerative diseases.
I think that what we are seeing is that there may be an 'event' that is said to be the cause of the outcome, BUT, the outcome is the clue as to what has progressed to create symptoms since the 'event'.

I guess this is why there is so much disagreement across the board.

An event can happen in 10 people and the outcomes will be different.

The patient history as you have repeatedly shown is more important than the symptoms, the progression is determined by the history, therefore the outcome varies between patients.

The treatments will have different effects and some core treatments will benefit most patients.

Have I understood what you are showing us?

:)
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby MrSuccess » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:20 pm

Nigel - this simple example should explain...

There are 100 people on an island. Normally only ONE of these people have ingrown toenails on their feet. Call it -ONE PERCENT- of the Island population. [ 1 % ]

Along comes the clumsy buggar - MrSuccess- who manages to step on the feet of all 100 of the islanders.

In various lengths of time ...... about SIX people soon have ingrown toenails. [ 6 % ]

Thanks to MrSuccess' inflicting TRAUMA on these people .... the islands ingrown toenail problem has expanded .... SIX FOLD .

The other 94 Islanders cannot see the connection.


Trauma >>>>>> Time >>>>>>>> CCSVI >>>>>>>>> = MS


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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby vesta » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:13 pm

Hello Dr Flanagan:
I want to correct your depiction of Touch For Health and Kinesiology. You express a withering contempt for just about everybody and everything which tends to close down communication and the development of ideas.
I was treated by a very talented Kinesiologist in San Francisco in the mid 1980’s. (My Neurologist declared I couldn’t have recovered from MS as I had, therefore I never had it.) Detoxification, allergy testing, diet, supplements and varied physical and emotional issues determined and “de-stressed” by “asking the body” and balancing the meridiens. I studied at the Acupressure Institute in Berkeley to be certified as an Acupressure Massage Therapist. Touch For Health was a foundation course and I believe it required 3 two day weekends to complete. Touch For Health was created as a self help technique to be used to treat family and friends. It is also the foundation course for Kinesiology. I would recommend it precisely as a self help technique. Also, if one is skeptical of “muscle testing”, one can learn to do it oneself. I also began courses in Kinesiology taught by my Kinesiologist. I never practiced Kinesiology or Acupressure Massage, but have used the knowledge in my own healing.
I recommend seeking a competent Kinesiologist to determine an individualized diet and supplements and general healing program. If I have doubts about what is ailing me, I can get an idea from the Kinesiologist and take things from there. “Muscle testing” works (I wasn’t very good at it). Of course not everyone who sets themselves up as a Kinesiologist is necessarily competent (and there are plenty of obnoxious know -it -alls around. Healing seems to attract them.)
I have described my own treatment history in greater detail on my site MS Cure Enigmas.net.
You may be a talented Chiropractor but that is no reason to trash therapies which could be of great help to your readers.
MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:19 pm

You got it Nigel.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:14 pm

Vesta,
Actually I am an Applied Kinesiologist and have a great deal of expertise in it. Touch for Health was started by Dr. John Thie. I had his book a long time ago. It was good for memory cards learning the five elements, meridians, Sheng and Ko cycles, neurolymphatics and neurovascular points etc that were obligatory in AK. The neurovascular points actually come Dr. John Bennet and were called Bennet Points. I worked with a Bennet Point practioner for awhile. Bennet Points are okay but not that helpful for treatment in my opinion. They also became the basis of the TS line and TS tapping - temporal-sphenoid. In sacrooccipital technique they use occipital line and points along to determine the Lovett brother subluxation. X-rays, orthopedic tests, neuro tests, standard muscles tests, and range of motion are far better.

My research started with AK. I am a big fan of the late Dr. David Walther. I have all his books. Its hard to find used book of volume two on the Head and Neck and they are expensive. As I grew in my research I was especially inspired by his chapter on the cranial nerves and suggestions for possible areas of entrapment. He was way ahead of his time. I expanded on it. I also used a great deal of Dr. Walter Schmidts endocrince work as well as many others. AK became a solid way for me to integrate a wide array of knowlege. I was a big fan of Dr. Bernard Jensen as was very much influenced by his work and iridology. He sent me a copy of his book for my research. I have a long list of doctors who inspired me, including chiropractors. I don't agree with the type of kinesiology I posted links to regardless of whether it is done by chiropractors, medical doctors, vets, therapists or lay people. It has turned into a circus.

The protocols for basic muscle testing in AK are clearly laid out in Walther's book and were based on "Muscles Testing and Function- by Kendall and Kendall who were physical therapists I admire. Their book set the standard in muscle testing. My electrical acupuncture work was influenced by a book on TENS by a physical therapist. AK muscle diagnosis is also based a lot on the work on Janet Travell on myofascitis and trigger point therapy. I have both her volumes. Volume 1 is starting to lose its binding. Therapy localization and sublingual testing are okay but not that helpful or useful. Surrogate testing is nonsense.

Regarding Autonomic Response Testing it states on Dr. Klinghardt's website that ... " no two examiners can find the same problems in a given patient, unless both examiners are free of stored toxins, infections, root canal filled teeth, untreated scars, active psycho-emotional conflicts, have not recently consumed foods they are allergic to etc. "

That leaves me out.

The reason why no two examiners can find the same problems because the tests are highly suggestive and very subjective.
How does the tester even know to ask the right question or is the question irrelavent? How do they know what they are therapy localizing if they don't ask the right questions? Can they determine if there is a Chiari, undersized posterior fossa where CSF is blocked? Can they tell if their is a structural or vascular malformation. I can't. But if others can then we can all forgo MRI, radiologists, ultrasound etc. and save a ton of money. We just ask the muscles, the head or the feet for answers.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:12 pm

Interesting situation with 'MS'.
We can look for the cause of a common 'disease' or we can make it as bearable as possible.
It is almost like an East meets West scenario.
The is money to be made either way for Investors!
If the 'disease' process is understood then there can be prevention but can there be a cure?
As a person with a problem disease I wonder what my goal 'should be?'
Is knowing how I got it going to change the outcome or simply make my Mind happier from knowing?

There is a grey shade in here where we are not far enough along with the knowledge of why to accept that management is as good as we get.

The hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal axis (HPA) is an area that is also poorly understood in this disease and the effects it has on gene expression and the gene replications when they are dividing. Same an interesting piece on genes and their influences or the influences on genes that we have mentally;
" Some “Basic” Cellular Biology
There are thousands upon thousands of receptors on each cell in our body. Each receptor is specific to one peptide, or protein. When we have feelings of anger, sadness, guilt, excitement, happiness or nervousness, each separate emotion releases its own flurry of neuropeptides. Those peptides surge through the body and connect with those receptors which change the structure of each cell as a whole. Where this gets interesting is when the cells actually divide. If a cell has been exposed to a certain peptide more than others, the new cell that is produced through its division will have more of the receptor that matches with that specific peptide. Likewise, the cell will also have less receptors for peptides that its mother/sister cell was not exposed to as often.
Thus if you have been bombarding your cells with peptides from a negative attitude, you are literally programming your cells to receive more of those peptides in the future. Even worse, you are lessening the number of receptors of positive-attitude peptides, making yourself inclined towards negativity.
This is why it takes more than a few days of positive thinking to make a significant impact on your long-term attitude patterns. Every cell in your body is replaced every 2 months. So if you have a history of negative thinking, depression, pessimism or perpetual frustration, plan on working on yourself for longer than a few days before you see more permanent results.
http://www.highexistence.com/thoughts-program-cells/ "

If we have inflammation due to injury such as the spinal injuries we talk about in MS then we are also going to be effected by cascade of physical or cellular influence plus our attitude to that injury and the bodies response. If we have infections then we are also effected by the cells of the 'foreign to us' living organisms we are fighting. Lots more to life than we assume!

So who is Conscious and in control of our Self?

;)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:21 am

Managed to distract a few brain cells whilst I was on the treadmill.
It would seem that the greatest challenge for everyone is progression of our disabilities.
If this disease wasn't progressing we would have a different mind set.
So acceptance of some theories in MS is challenging due to what appears to be from a static cause or outcome of a cause, when we are accumulating more symptoms and greater disability as well.

Having a broken leg, knits itself, or having a cut grows back together. Both of this type of injury seem to be finite.
If we have a festering sore it grows until it's cause is halted and a healing process can begin. If the cause of infection or the reason the immune system is failing isn't found then the sore cyclically continues it's life.

So what is it about MS that makes it more challenging, knowing what caused the first incident to become chronic and cascading or knowing what the mechanism is that causes the progression/cascade and doing everything possible to neutralise the cascade.
The cause and cascade appear to be two different, possibly not interconnected scenarios.

The rolling Stone and the Moss it collects on it's journey!

This seems to be why Dr M Simka and others are now searching with a different mind set than just the one process as a key cause, rather one of synergy and cascades.

But we knew that!

:)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:16 am

Your right Nigel. Knowing the cause is important for prevention but it may or may not be helpful for treatment. It doesn't matter if your spine was twisted wrong from birth or if it got that way following an injury. In either case, malalignments and degeneration of the spine cause structural strains that can further strain the contents of the cranial vault and spinal canal. While it may or may not improve the signs and symptoms most manual therapies can be used to safely reduce spinal strains. On the other hand, if you intend to prescribe dangerous, sometimes life threatening, immunosuppresive or any disease modifying drugs with many known adverse unhealthy side effects, you should be fairly certain beyond all shadow of a doubt that your assumption that the condition is due to autoimmune-inflammatory causes is correct.

There are eight basic principle in TCM: strong-weak; hot-cold; wet-dry; and internal-external. Except for emergencies and poisoning, the goal of treatment in TCM is to restore balance to the patients particular physiology, not to treat the disease. No two persons are exactly alike. I just had this discussion with a Chinese Herbal Pharmacist the other day regarding a patient with lung cancer. He is a traditionalist and sticks to treating the signs and symptoms according to the basic principles used for thousands of years. Modern TCM keeps with tradition but also looks at and uses it medicines pharmacologically.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:26 am

The text below is from the study on degnerative conditions of the cervical spine. Note the part where it discusses full power assesment of the muscles on a scale of 0-5. They are referring to standard muscle tests not kinesiology. A complete understanding of muscles, use and interpretation of standard muscle tests requires years of study to learn basics of origin, insertion, innervation, agonist and antagonist, quality of contraction, orthopedic and neurological conditions etc. AK was meant to build upon and add to the science not detract from it.

"...The basis of patient evaluation begins with a thorough history. The location, duration and quality of pain are all important considerations in assessing cervical spine patients. Questionnaires and visual analog scores are helpful for quantifying debility and how much the symptoms are affecting their activities of daily living. Aggravating and alleviating factors are clues which often help the clinician formulate a differential diagnosis, and then narrow the options to the most likely etiology for the compliant in the majority of cases. The distribution of complaints (ie. axial, radicular, or myelopathic) is paramount in the patient evaluation, in that the particular pattern may help to localize where a structural pathology exists within the neuroaxis. For example, longstanding dull axial neck pain, possibly due to facet or disk degeneration in a multitude of sites in the neck, is much less specific as a complaint than acute burning pain into the right shoulder/deltoid that would suggest a disk herniation at C4/5. During the clinical evaluation, gait troubles, loss of function, coordination issues, and symptoms consistent with relative progression are all important factors to consider for these patients. Additionally, the physician must not overlook less common etiologies for neck pathology, such as exposure to infectious agents and environmental toxins, particularly in the setting of myelopathy.

A detailed physical exam is essential in evaluation of cervical spine disorders. A generalized inspection of the cervical spine and shoulder area should begin each examination. Evidence of trauma, abnormal moles, café-au-lait spots can all suggest different etiologies for pain. As some shoulder issues may mimic cervical spine problems, a brief shoulder exam is often helpful to rule this out, looking specifically for signs of impingement. Palpation about the spine may reveal tenderness over bony prominences, spasm, and painful trigger points. Active and passive range of motion must also be assessed. At the same time Spurling’s manuver may be performed which involves rotation and extension of the neck to each side, thereby closing down the ipsilateral neuroforamen to the rotation, which may elicit pain in the setting of radiulopathy. L’hermittes sign can be seen during the course of range of motion, which will be reported by the patient as the presence of an electric shock sensation with flexion and extension of the neck in some patients with cervical myelopathy. Interpretation of deep tendon reflexes may indicate radiculopathy, with loss of muscle activation unilaterally, while hyperreflexia or reflex spreading (ie. the inverted radial reflex) may indicate myelopathy or higher central nervous system disease. The Hoffman’s test is performed by the examiner rapidly flexing (ie. flicking) the distal interphalangeal joint of the middle finger, which elicits spontaneous thumb and index finger flexion in the patients demonstrating this sign. This should be performed to rule out myelopathy in conjunction with a Babinski reflex and assessment of clonus. A full muscle power examination of the upper and lower extemities with results reported on a scale of 0 to 5 is essential. Sensation should be evaluated in a dermatomal pattern looking for specific distributions of numbness, pain, or other dysesthesias. Sensation to pinprick and vibration are also helpful in evaluating the condition of the cervical cord. Finally, an assessment of gait may point to cervical spine pathology. Myelopathic patients often struggle with tandem gait, may exhibit scissoring when they attempt to walk, and frequently have a mechanical appearing and wide based gait when they ambulate spontaneously..."

The link below is to a Wikipedia page on AK. It's not flattering for a good reason. It's turned into a circus that's good for parlor tricks, nothing more. My goal is to build upon Walther and some of the pioneers in AK contributed to the art of clinical sciences not denigrate it. Corny Kinesiology, occipital drops and checking leg length alone don't cut it in my book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:05 pm

Oh, how I love the placebo effect! Had another spinal decompression treatment today, and now I can lift my right foot 6 inches off the floor. Could not move a toe a few days ago.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:20 am

Go Placebo!

While your at it Dania, can you turn on the AC up there. It's hot and humid down here. The local lake was luke warm. It's usually barely "refreshing" this early in the year.
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