New negative articles

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

New negative articles

Postby Direct-MS » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:53 pm

Neurology has finally published an article on CCSVI and it is negative of course. It is accompanied by an editorial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881272
Last edited by Direct-MS on Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New negative articles

Postby scorpion » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:26 pm

Direct-MS wrote:Neurology has finally published an article on CCSVI and it is negative of course. It is accompanied by an editorial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881272


Are you disputing their methodology or conclusions? If so could you please explain why so that Thisisms members can better understand what has you disgruntled with this study. Thanks for your time.
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Re: New negative articles

Postby 1eye » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:53 pm

scorpion wrote:
Direct-MS wrote:Neurology has finally published an article on CCSVI and it is negative of course. It is accompanied by an editorial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881272


Are you disputing their methodology or conclusions? If so could you please explain why so that Thisisms members can better understand what has you disgruntled with this study. Thanks for your time.


I read the post you are referring to and I do not see any disgruntlement.
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Re: New negative articles

Postby scorpion » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:57 pm

1eye wrote:
scorpion wrote:
Direct-MS wrote:Neurology has finally published an article on CCSVI and it is negative of course. It is accompanied by an editorial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881272


Are you disputing their methodology or conclusions? If so could you please explain why so that Thisisms members can better understand what has you disgruntled with this study. Thanks for your time.


I read the post you are referring to and I do not see any disgruntlement.


I will only respond to you once so as not to get in a back and forth with you but generally when you call something negative it means you are discontented with it. Hence the word disgruntled 1eye.
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Re: New negative articles

Postby 1eye » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:00 pm

scorpion wrote:
Direct-MS wrote:Neurology has finally published an article on CCSVI and it is negative of course. It is accompanied by an editorial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881272


Are you disputing their methodology or conclusions? If so could you please explain why so that Thisisms members can better understand what has you disgruntled with this study. Thanks for your time.


I read the abstract and the only thing I see is "these data do not support CCSVI." Perhaps that is negative but I don't see how it proves anything negative about CCSVI.
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Postby cah » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:03 pm

This article is already discussed here, I think:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-14016.html
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Postby Cece » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:04 pm

The Neurology article is objectively negative toward CCSVI if it takes a stance against CCSVI. A stance toward it would be deemed positive toward CCSVI. 1eye is right.

I read an explanation of the results somewhere around here.
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Re: New negative articles

Postby MegansMom » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:15 pm

scorpion wrote:
Direct-MS wrote:Neurology has finally published an article on CCSVI and it is negative of course. It is accompanied by an editorial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881272


Are you disputing their methodology or conclusions? If so could you please explain why so that Thisisms members can better understand what has you disgruntled with this study. Thanks for your time.


Scorpion:

Dr Z never said that the iron was in the CSF (spinal fluid) He said that the brain parenchyma ( main tissue) had an abnormal amount of iron- He also said it was broken down into Ferritin and ultimately Hemosiderin (products of iron oxidation.) The red blood cells are the source of the iron, but they are not sure how it gets imbedded- they have a few theories- we will find this out in the next few years. I think its from turbulance from the flows against the normal epithelium (sheer stress)and red cells may fracture slowly over time by being beatup by turbulance, this with the slowr than normal drain off and you get imbedded iron. This iron build up is SLOW and directly proportional to the extent of the blockages- Zamboni describes the breeching of the BBB but this is describing oligoclonal bodies in it ,not frank blood or iron. He does say that the iron is found in patterns consistent with flow and in the gray matter too- We see the same type ofiron in peripheral venous disease of the lower legs.

This article is off track in talking about CSF and not the vasculature
(veins) The venules and capillary epthelium are where the iron is and it appears on SWI with certain patterns that coincide with the reflux flow.

Neuros have limited knowledge of the hemodynamics of the vascular system and are much more comfortable with the CSF- CSF is in their arenas.

The implication of this lack of iron in the CSF is a moot point..... no one ever implied that this was a finding.

Think about iron outside the human body-- its quite strong, corrosive and oxidizes easily- everyone has seen rust.
Iron in the body belongs only in a few places- mainly the marrow and spleen and red blood cells where they bind with oxygen to carry it as hemoglobin. Red cells live 120 days.
In people with MS the macrophages (a specialized White blood cell) are "ladened" with iron.I believe in an attempt to clean it out.

Most neurologists believe that the WBCs were destroying the brain cells (axons) by attacking myelin.that insulate them.......... maybe they were just trying to remove the excessive hemosiderin.(iron)

Please go to the CCSVI research posts and read the Zamboni iron related papers for more details.
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Postby cheerleader » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:40 pm

We've already been discussing this paper here:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-14016.html

And as I've said on that thread and will repeat....
Ferritin is not the issue---it's hemosiderin. Ferritin shows recent infarction, like a stroke---hemosiderin shows ongoing deposition and degradation of plasmic particles. Dr. Zamboni found very high levels of hemosiderin in the urine of pwMS. This is also a biomarker of chronic venous disease. Once again, the researchers are not looking at the correct markers. If they consulted a vascular doctor or read Dr. Zamboni's research, it would be as clear to them as it is to most of us.

A simple test....check the urine levels of pwMS for hemosiderin. That's what Dr. Zamboni suggested. BTW---Jeff had high hemosiderin levels.
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Postby 1eye » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:59 pm

cheerleader wrote:A simple test....check the urine levels of pwMS for hemosiderin. That's what Dr. Zamboni suggested. BTW---Jeff had high hemosiderin levels.
cheer


So: a simple urine test for 'MS'. I am disgusted at the 15 years it took me, and my veins in my arm became almost useless on account of the blood draws.... :evil:
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