Vertebral Arteries

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Vertebral Arteries

Postby Interrupted » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:40 am

Do these come in to play anywhere in this spectrum of CCSVI?
I ask partly because UprightDoc mentioned this to me as a likely problem place for me, and I agree. But having little anatomical knowledge of veins, are they too close to the brain to be scanned or...?
In other words, does anyone have any knowledge to share about the vertebral arteries?
28/07/10, 04/10/10, 16/11/10 - Dopplers x3 Ireland, Poland, Scotland.
12/10/10 - 1st procedure, Poland. Symptoms worsened. No improvement.
Verdict: I urge caution + am taking a back seat watching research ATM.
13/02/12 - Started Wheldon ABX protocol.
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Postby Interrupted » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:30 pm

Or even if a problem here might show itself on the scans they do? Even if the arteries aren't treated with regards CCSVI? :roll:
28/07/10, 04/10/10, 16/11/10 - Dopplers x3 Ireland, Poland, Scotland.
12/10/10 - 1st procedure, Poland. Symptoms worsened. No improvement.
Verdict: I urge caution + am taking a back seat watching research ATM.
13/02/12 - Started Wheldon ABX protocol.
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Postby joge » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:36 pm

My Belgium surgeon (100+ operations and scans for ccsvi) told me these veins are almost never a problem in ccsvi.

But I understand that when they are are a problem, they can't be treated at this moment. :?

(they are located around the spine)
I'm ready, I'm ready !
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Postby costumenastional » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:25 am

joge wrote:My Belgium surgeon (100+ operations and scans for ccsvi) told me these veins are almost never a problem in ccsvi.


Vertebral Arteries is what our friend asked about and not veins.
Does he scan those arteries? From the little I understand they are not even able to tell if there is CCSVI in the jugs and azy in some cases. Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't know if arteries may also contribute to MS progression. But at this point i wouldn't bet my life on whatever doctors might have to say only because we are at the very beginning of trying to establish the relation between MS and the vascular system. If any.

CCSVI stands for chronic cerebro-spinal VENOUS insufficiency, thus IF arteries turn out to play some role down the road we ll be talking for something new, even though vascular.
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Postby Interrupted » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:32 pm

In a way, because i'm questionning how much of my problem is MS and how much unrelated to CCSVI as we currently know it, I guess i'm just kinda wondering whether any problems there would be evident in the scans that will be done when I go to Katowice.

Thanks CN, it's pretty much what I expected. Best thing would be to discuss it with Simka when I get there, I think x
28/07/10, 04/10/10, 16/11/10 - Dopplers x3 Ireland, Poland, Scotland.
12/10/10 - 1st procedure, Poland. Symptoms worsened. No improvement.
Verdict: I urge caution + am taking a back seat watching research ATM.
13/02/12 - Started Wheldon ABX protocol.
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Postby shye » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:40 pm

Interrupted
I'm glad you asked this question--
an exray of my neck showed some calcificaton of the carotid--an ultrasound showed some calcification in my abdominal arteries.
When discussing this with my dr (a general practice osteopath), we decided to do an ultrasound of carotids and of aorta--
I got these tests run today, will get results in about a week.
But until you asked your question, I, with my hazy knowledge of all the arteries, assumed the vertebrals would be included in the doppler. I looked up some info re your question, and it looks like they will not be included.
So depending on results, will most likely discuss with my dr getting the vertebrals scanned, esp since they seem to run up thru the foramen into skull, and I had severe neck injury--when got atlas adjusted, became much better--which would indicate possibility of vertebrals being involved.
I would assume the lower vertebrals could be accessed with ultrasound, but will have to do some more research.
From my own experience i think the arteries have much to do with what we are discussing as MS--and well worth exploring. It is not CCSVI, but another vascular angle of the disease for some of us I think.
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Postby Interrupted » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:04 am

Thank you for that Shye, very interesting! :D
28/07/10, 04/10/10, 16/11/10 - Dopplers x3 Ireland, Poland, Scotland.
12/10/10 - 1st procedure, Poland. Symptoms worsened. No improvement.
Verdict: I urge caution + am taking a back seat watching research ATM.
13/02/12 - Started Wheldon ABX protocol.
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Postby whyRwehere » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:26 am

The flow in my husbands vertebral veins is not good, but I understand there is nothing the IR can do for that as they are too small...
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Postby shye » Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:40 am

Why
but we are talking about the vertebral Arteries here--different functions.. if either not up to par would impact MS
the veins would be connected to the CCSVI hypothesis, the arteries to yet another hypothesis
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Postby whyRwehere » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:09 am

Ah, yes, right....well, if one is having squashed veins, they very well may have squashed arteries, so I'll keep reading here....
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Postby whyRwehere » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:34 am

In trying to learn more about the arteries, I found this article
useful on the topic
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Postby 1eye » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:38 pm

Again I think this is a question for experts however:

Standard ultrasound used on your chest arteries is called an echo-cardiogram. It does not detect flow or direction of blood because it is not Doppler. Doppler, if I understand it correctly, uses reflections of an ultrasound sound and the Doppler shift (the same that makes sirens sound like they are changing pitch as they get closer to you or farther away). That results from the addition or subtraction of the speed of the ambulance or police car to or from from the speed of the sound waves their sirens are making.

The exact same shift can be 'heard' by an ultrasound probe. Doppler ultrasound is easier to do, the more shallow (closer to the surface) that the veins are. For this reason, a higher-frequency probe (the sound is measured in millions of cycles per second -- ordinary sound can only be detected by human ears up to about twenty thousand cycles per second) must be used for deep cerebral veins, as the lower-frequency probe normally used for ultrasound (like for baby pictures or echo-cardiograms) will not detect the Doppler shift at those depths.

This is new science, and the tool is infrequently used, and rarer. Many labs now have one, but it has only been used for leg veins. Dr. Zamboni's use of it is a new one, and training is recommended.
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
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