PLAVIX - An Idea to accelerate the PROOF

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

PLAVIX - An Idea to accelerate the PROOF

Postby Gordon » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:32 am

Double Blind study using Blood thinning drugs only.

If a study was set up, one could show quickly that by just using Plavix, to improve blood flow, one could most likely show that MS is related to Blood flow or lack thereof.

Your thoughts please ???

Obviously for those that have complete blockages this would not work but the study could work around this.

Gord
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Postby ikulo » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:05 pm

Didn't Putnam already try blood thinners 80 years ago with no success? I couldn't find the actual studies, but that has been noted on this board a few times.
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Postby Shueywho » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:22 pm

The study was completed in sep. 2010, so results should be coming out soon I hope. I think this also would provide at least a link.


http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00467584
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Postby Motiak » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:08 pm

ikulo wrote:Didn't Putnam already try blood thinners 80 years ago with no success? I couldn't find the actual studies, but that has been noted on this board a few times.


I think you are right, atleast that's how I remember things.
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Postby cah » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:14 pm

Plavix is an anticoagulant. It prevents blood from clotting, but contributes nothing to the blood flow as it doesn't make the blood "thinner".
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." Socrates
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Postby dania » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:27 am

Plavix is an anticoagulant. It prevents blood from clotting, but contributes nothing to the blood flow as it doesn't make the blood "thinner".[/quote

I have been on Coumadin, an anticoagulant, for over 10 years. My MS has gotten much worse over this time. Anticoagulants prevents the formation of blood clots, nothing else.
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Sorry

Postby Gordon » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:41 am

Sorry mis understanding of Roll - So aspirin is the answer
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Re: Sorry

Postby dania » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:54 am

Gordon wrote:Sorry mis understanding of Roll - So aspirin is the answer

Aspirin helps in preventing blood from clotting. Just like Plavix and Coumadin. All 3 make the blood less sticky.
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Postby malden » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:57 am

ikulo wrote:Didn't Putnam already try blood thinners 80 years ago with no success? I couldn't find the actual studies, but that has been noted on this board a few times.


Multiple sclerosis: the history of a disease
by T. J. Murray
page 411 (MS trerapy 1940-1950)

Quote:
...Putnam and his group published a study of 43 patients; the relapsing cases showed striking improvement, but progressive cases remaind unchanged or continued to progress. The extensive statistical study of 3,797,attacks in 810 patients over an average observation period of 9,7 years seemed to confirm the results with dicoumerol....

...Two years later, Lesny and Polacek used Swedish heparin in 27 cases and Chech preparation of dicoumerol in 40 patients for up to 14 months and reported that the good results were seen not only in the "fresh" cases, but also in those who had been paraplegic and now could walk again.

(dicoumerol - similar to warfarin/Coumadin)

That study show that blood thinners are conected with some symptom improvements in MS, and that must be considered when evaluating Liberation treatment benefits.

Best regards, M.
Last edited by malden on Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sorry

Postby malden » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:02 am

dania wrote:Aspirin helps in preventing blood from clotting. Just like Plavix and Coumadin. All 3 make the blood less sticky.

Aspirin is a pain reliever with anti-inflammatory effects. Antiinflammatory steroids (or corticosteroids) have good efects in MS pulse therapy - we all know this, I personaly with Solu-Medrol infusions. I decided rather to take aspirin-like pills than go with corticosteroids. So far, so good.

Martin Cane, M.D:

Both warfarin (Brand name - Coumadin) and Plavix (generic - clopidogrel bisulfate) are considered blood thinners. But they are very different drugs with different actions:

Warfarin works by counteracting Vitamin K in the plasma of the blood. Vitamin K is key in the coagulation pathways responsible for the clotting of blood, and with less activity of Vitamin K blood takes longer to clot. Too little, as well as too much warfarin can be dangerous. If taking a dose that is ineffective, clot formation is not adequately prevented and the problem you are trying to treat or prevent may very well occur. Taking too much warfarin raises the risk of bleeding, especially in the gastrointestinal tract and, in the elderly, the brain. People taking this drug must have their blood monitored to measure the time it takes to clot, which can result in frequent adjustments of their dose. The use of warfarin is considered "full anticoagulation" and is felt to be more effective (a higher level) than other oral blood thinners.

Plavix is a drug known as an anti-platelet drug. This drug works on the platelets in the blood stream by causing them to be less "sticky". When clots form, platelets stick to each other as part of the clotting process. Other medications in this class of drug are aspirin, persantine and aggrenox. Unlike warfarin, monitoring blood levels or activity is not necessary.
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Questions on Trial Design

Postby MarkW » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:08 am

How would a blood thinning agent have any impact against a sceptum or web ? (documented by Sclafani) or a complete restriction ?

Blood thinners are contra-indicated in some patients. How do you exclude these patients but also select a representitive sample of people ?

MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Questions on Trial Design

Postby malden » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:48 am

MarkW wrote:How would a blood thinning agent have any impact against a sceptum or web ? (documented by Sclafani) or a complete restriction ?
...

Who said that "a blood thinning agent have any impact against a sceptum or web"? I said that they have impact on some MS symptoms.
Sceptum or web? Complete restriction? What are you talking about? Nobody mention that.
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Postby Shueywho » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:37 pm

Maybe it was a question out of curiosity....just maybe?
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Postby malden » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:44 pm

Shueywho wrote:Maybe it was a question out of curiosity....just maybe?
Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe, maybe, I don't know? ;)
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Postby thisisalex » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:18 am

hi there,

A hungarian neurologist tried to replicate Putnam (in 1950!) , and used blood thinners (dicumarin) in a study. he wasnt succesful...

here is the abstract:
Z. Böszörményi (Neuropsychiatric-university-clinic, Budapest, 1950): New therapeutic trials of disseminated sclerosis. From among 36 patients suffering from disseminated sclerosis after dicumarin-treatment the condition of 10 patiens has shown moderate improvement, in 7 cases the improvement was doubtful, 14 remained unchanged and 5 showed marked deterioration. The validity of these results is made uncertain by the short duration of treatment (3–12 weeks) the drugs having been given in too small doses in some cases, while in others dicumarin was given together with other therapy. In one of the deteriorated cases, which nearly ended lethally, the danger of administering dicumarin in the presence of pontobulbar foci was shown. 10–10 patients have been given myanesin resp. relaxil, with an only temporary effect on the neurological picture and with an also transitory euphoria, but the findings seem to prove that the main point of effect is localised to the cerebrum. Parpanit has been given to 5 patients for 2–6 months, with but a little diminution of spasticity, and in 2 cases of the intentional tremor; of greatest value was the euphorizing effect of the drug which might have been due to the presence of subclinical frontomesencephalic foci. While dicumarin cannot be recommended as a therapy for disseminated sclerosis the other 2 drugs may be applied owing to their possible symptomatic ameliorating effects.
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