Translated article: MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TRIAL

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Translated article: MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TRIAL

Postby ThisIsMA » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:51 am

Google translation of Italian article. Its not encouraging.

If I'm reading it correctly, it sounds Like Dr. Zamboni resigned from this Italian trial in protest because they are not planning to properly train the ultrasound technicians that will be performing the dopplers.

This looks like a large trial, so if it CCSVI is not found, it will be held up as proof that it doesn't exist. Very depressing...

Here is the link to the original article in Italian. And below that, the Google translation.

http://www.atuttadestra.net/?p=31713

What can be done? Perhaps a letter writing campaign to draw attention to the flaws in this trial? Dr Zamboni already published a paper showing that CCSVI Doppler is not reproducible without hands on training.

Here is the translated article:

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TRIAL ON WRONG CCSVI

MS-multiplaROMA - The protocol established by the Italian Multiple Sclerosis (Aism) to test the theory of medical Ferrara Paolo Zamboni origin of the disease and its possible cure "may not be able to prove anything" because of some defects Procedure. This was stated by the Zamboni, and who 'resigned from the Scientific Committee of the trial, on the sidelines of a hearing at the Senate Committee of Inquiry on the NHS chaired by Ignazio Marino.
"I was asked to wait several months to train those who must take exams - Zamboni said - and I 'was told no. I then suggested to reduce the sample, so it must be taken only by technicians already 'sizes, but this request' was refused. In these circumstances, the trial may not prove anything, 'cause a non-technical format and' able to find the malformation of blood vessels and we believe that 'the base of the sclerosis.
Ferrara and the doctor 'was replaced by Erwin Stolz, Department of Neurology of the University' of Giessen in Germany: "This is an expert in ultrasound of the skull - Zamboni says - and to show my method examinations must be made in the neck and chest. Skepticism there 'in all groups on multiple sclerosis in the world, who mostly funds from pharmaceutical companies. " (ANSA).
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Postby Cece » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:04 am

Who are the people with the power to change this trial?
From this I caught: the Scientific Committee of the trial
and the Senate Committee of Inquiry on the NHS chaired by Ignazio Marino.

Who else? Let's get the addresses together and let's write. It's not in our favor to have these trials going forward and used against the CCSVI movement. I trust Dr. Zamboni on this one, for him to resign from this speaks volumes. We would be asking for them to listen to Dr. Zamboni and allow time for proper training or reduce the size of the trial?
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Postby concerned » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:12 am

So he required several months to train the doppler technicians or that the sample size be reduced? If I caught that correctly I think that would be a cause for alarm re:Zamboni, not re:AISM
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Postby concerned » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:18 am

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Re: Translated article: MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TR

Postby sbr487 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:33 am

ThisIsMA wrote:What can be done? Perhaps a letter writing campaign to draw attention to the flaws in this trial? Dr Zamboni already published a paper showing that CCSVI Doppler is not reproducible without hands on training.


In a way its better that Dr. Z is not a part of this trial that probably has the end result ready. I think he did the right thing by resigning ...
Its probably time for SIR community to be more vocal ...
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
- Max Planck
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Re: Translated article: MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TR

Postby scorpion » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:38 am

ThisIsMA wrote:Google translation of Italian article. Its not encouraging.

If I'm reading it correctly, it sounds Like Dr. Zamboni resigned from this Italian trial in protest because they are not planning to properly train the ultrasound technicians that will be performing the dopplers.
This looks like a large trial, so if it CCSVI is not found, it will be held up as proof that it doesn't exist. Very depressing...

Here is the link to the original article in Italian. And below that, the Google translation.

http://www.atuttadestra.net/?p=31713

What can be done? Perhaps a letter writing campaign to draw attention to the flaws in this trial? Dr Zamboni already published a paper showing that CCSVI Doppler is not reproducible without hands on training.

Here is the translated article:

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TRIAL ON WRONG CCSVI

MS-multiplaROMA - The protocol established by the Italian Multiple Sclerosis (Aism) to test the theory of medical Ferrara Paolo Zamboni origin of the disease and its possible cure "may not be able to prove anything" because of some defects Procedure. This was stated by the Zamboni, and who 'resigned from the Scientific Committee of the trial, on the sidelines of a hearing at the Senate Committee of Inquiry on the NHS chaired by Ignazio Marino.
"I was asked to wait several months to train those who must take exams - Zamboni said - and I 'was told no. I then suggested to reduce the sample, so it must be taken only by technicians already 'sizes, but this request' was refused. In these circumstances, the trial may not prove anything, 'cause a non-technical format and' able to find the malformation of blood vessels and we believe that 'the base of the sclerosis.
Ferrara and the doctor 'was replaced by Erwin Stolz, Department of Neurology of the University' of Giessen in Germany: "This is an expert in ultrasound of the skull - Zamboni says - and to show my method examinations must be made in the neck and chest. Skepticism there 'in all groups on multiple sclerosis in the world, who mostly funds from pharmaceutical companies. " (ANSA).


This just gets more absurd every day. Zamboni and his secret technique. :roll:
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Postby cah » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:47 am

Cece, perhaps this could be the right address. From the pdf on the aism page:

Anyone interested or would like more information about Studio, you can contact Area AISM Scientific Research at the following telephone number: +390102713410 or e-mail: fism@aism.it Any telephone or sending an e-mail is not intended as adherence to the study, but only as an interest in obtaining more information.
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." Socrates
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Postby ThisIsMA » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:17 am

Concerned wrote:
So he required several months to train the doppler technicians or that the sample size be reduced? If I caught that correctly I think that would be a cause for alarm re:Zamboni, not re:AISM

I could be wrong but I don't think that is what Zamboni was saying.

Here's what the article says:
"I was asked to wait several months to train those who must take exams - Zamboni said - and I 'was told no. I then suggested to reduce the sample, so it must be taken only by technicians already 'sizes, but this request' was refused.

There's no doubt that something is lost in translation, maybe an Italiian speaker could do a better job than Google with the transaltion, but here's what I picked up from the article, what I think Zamboni was saying:

<<I was planning to train the doppler technicians but I was at first told to wait for several months, then I was told no (that I am not allowed to train the technicians). In response to this I suggested they reduce the sample size to only use technicians who are already trained in the procedure, and again, I was told no>>

Needing to receive training before conducting a specific new protocol is entirely reasonable and to be expected. Here is the link to a study published in the journal International Angiology.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20351668

The study shows that the reproducibility of CCSVI doppler screening requires hands on training. Dr. Sclafani mentioned in his thread that his own doppler tech had difficulty finding CCSVI until after he went through the training.

Many many protocols require hands on training, I believe people must get retrained every two years for something as simple as CPR. Needing to receive training ONCE in order to be competent to perform a protocol is entirely reasonable.
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Nay-sayer warning

Postby MarkW » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:25 am

see subject line
Last edited by MarkW on Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Nay-sayer warning

Postby concerned » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:29 am

MarkW wrote:personal attack removed
MarkW


Please refer to the rules of the board.
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Re: Translated article: MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TR

Postby garyak » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:40 am

scorpion wrote:
ThisIsMA wrote:Google translation of Italian article. Its not encouraging.

If I'm reading it correctly, it sounds Like Dr. Zamboni resigned from this Italian trial in protest because they are not planning to properly train the ultrasound technicians that will be performing the dopplers.
This looks like a large trial, so if it CCSVI is not found, it will be held up as proof that it doesn't exist. Very depressing...

Here is the link to the original article in Italian. And below that, the Google translation.

http://www.atuttadestra.net/?p=31713

What can be done? Perhaps a letter writing campaign to draw attention to the flaws in this trial? Dr Zamboni already published a paper showing that CCSVI Doppler is not reproducible without hands on training.

Here is the translated article:

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TRIAL ON WRONG CCSVI

MS-multiplaROMA - The protocol established by the Italian Multiple Sclerosis (Aism) to test the theory of medical Ferrara Paolo Zamboni origin of the disease and its possible cure "may not be able to prove anything" because of some defects Procedure. This was stated by the Zamboni, and who 'resigned from the Scientific Committee of the trial, on the sidelines of a hearing at the Senate Committee of Inquiry on the NHS chaired by Ignazio Marino.
"I was asked to wait several months to train those who must take exams - Zamboni said - and I 'was told no. I then suggested to reduce the sample, so it must be taken only by technicians already 'sizes, but this request' was refused. In these circumstances, the trial may not prove anything, 'cause a non-technical format and' able to find the malformation of blood vessels and we believe that 'the base of the sclerosis.
Ferrara and the doctor 'was replaced by Erwin Stolz, Department of Neurology of the University' of Giessen in Germany: "This is an expert in ultrasound of the skull - Zamboni says - and to show my method examinations must be made in the neck and chest. Skepticism there 'in all groups on multiple sclerosis in the world, who mostly funds from pharmaceutical companies. " (ANSA).


This just gets more absurd every day. Zamboni and his secret technique. :roll:


It's not a secret technique. He has been teaching this technique to technicians from around the world for a while now, just lol, dude.
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Re: Translated article: MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TR

Postby Sotiris » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:49 am

According to the conclusions of "The reproducibility of colour Doppler in CCSVI assoiciated with MS", Echo-colour Doppler is a powerful, noninvasive and reproducible tool for screening CCSVI-MS but it needs special training (the not trained operator was about 50% of the time wrong, i.e. he could also decide by pure chance). Dr. Zamboni's concerns seem very logical. Considering that the study is a multicenter one (39 centers, 41 doctors acc. to my counting) allowing Dr. Zamboni to train all of them would delay the study for many days (if I remember correctly, the duration of the training course is 3 days), but would also disseminate his knowledge and his technique.
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Postby ikulo » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:51 am

I still don't understand the obsessions Zamboni has with ultrasound. Isn't the venogram the gold standard? If we are serious about proving CCSVI in a significant trial why are we NOT using the gold standard and continue to push the ultrasound? Am I missing something?
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Postby Jugular » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:08 pm

ikulo wrote:I still don't understand the obsessions Zamboni has with ultrasound. Isn't the venogram the gold standard? If we are serious about proving CCSVI in a significant trial why are we NOT using the gold standard and continue to push the ultrasound? Am I missing something?


You're quite right, but there is still need for a reliable and non-invasive screening and follow-up tool. There is one study proposed that will compare the effectiveness of MRV vs. US vs. VG. I think Zamboni is right. If they do not use the proper technique, we will not know if the results are accurate unless they calibrate the accuracy of their US method against a VG.
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Re: Translated article: MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: ZAMBONI, AISM TR

Postby scorpion » Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:22 pm

Sotiris wrote:According to the conclusions of "The reproducibility of colour Doppler in CCSVI assoiciated with MS", Echo-colour Doppler is a powerful, noninvasive and reproducible tool for screening CCSVI-MS but it needs special training (the not trained operator was about 50% of the time wrong, i.e. he could also decide by pure chance). Dr. Zamboni's concerns seem very logical. Considering that the study is a multicenter one (39 centers, 41 doctors acc. to my counting) allowing Dr. Zamboni to train all of them would delay the study for many days (if I remember correctly, the duration of the training course is 3 days), but would also disseminate his knowledge and his technique.


That is because CCSVI is subjective!!!! My suggestion is that Zamboni "runs" the doppler himself and points out the CCSVI he sees to the investigators. It really does not seem that complicated. It reminds me of a child playing a game and telling his friend if they do not follow his rules he is not playing! It is beginning to look like Zamboni and a couple of his colleagues are the only one's who can accurately diagnose CCSVI. My feeling is that nothing may change and unfortunately people may have to decide weather Zamboni and pals are seeing what they want to see or that the rest of the medical community are incompetent at locating CCSVI. I hear what you are saying Ikulo but Zamboni claims he can diagnose CCSVI via ultrasound as he did in his original study(100%). Hasn't Zamboni documented his "technique"?? If so i would suggest he shares it with investagators, steps back, and let his peers try to validate his intial study. If not, to some of us anyway, he looks like a desperate man trying to defend an idea that is losing steam. That said, I still support further investigation into the venuous system in case there is some connection between "bad veins" and MS.
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