Stop Vitamin D ?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:42 am

high serum calcium (hypercalcemia) associated with vitamin D3 supplementation is usually seen at serum 25(OH)D3 levels in excess of 250 nmol/L.

IMHO, if you have serum D3 levels in the neighbourhood of 100 nmol/L or lower, you need to look elsewhere for the source of a calcium imbalance.

IMHO, the calcium being high *in relation to cellular magnesium* is the key point. i also note with interest mention of low dietary protein and increased need for things like vitamin E.. FYI supplemental magnesium and vitamin E, along with high dietary protein intake, are all components of the 40 year old klenner protocol for MS.

i think the folks that are saying high calcium high calcium need to adjust the thinking to low magnesium, low magnesium.

in the research, a 'healthy control' minimum for serum magnesium would be 0.91 mmol/L. ms patients do tend to be low in magnesium.

on magnesium in MS patients and healthy controls:

http://www.sid.ir/en/VEWSSID/J_pdf/118620080207.pdf
MS Patient 1.87 ± 0.37
Healthy 2.22 ± 0.24

these researchers give the units for mag as 'mg' which is next door to useless unless we start making assumptions and doing some guesswork:

conversion factor
mg/dL 0.411 mmol/L

for starters 2.22 mg can't be per dL, that's way too low. so let's say they are using mg/L and we convert it to mg/dL giving us a mean of 222 in healthy controls. 222*.411 = 91.2 mmol/L. that's actually remarkable considering the different abstract i previously posted, which says everyone should supplement magnesium if the serum level drops below 0.90 mmol/L.

comparing the MS level.. 1.87 -> 187*.411 = 76.8 mmol/L.

normal range is typically given as 0.70-1.10. look at that, the ms patients in the above study have 'normal magnesium'. clearly not good enough! if you're hearing 'magnesium is normal' you might want to take a closer look.

nice little treatment article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11136367
The effect of magnesium oral therapy on spasticity in a patient with multiple sclerosis.
The effects of magnesium glycerophosphate oral therapy on spasticity was studied in a 35-year-old woman with severe spastic paraplegia resulting from multiple sclerosis (MS). We found a significant improvement in the spasticity after only 1 week from the onset of the treatment on the modified Ashworth scale, an improvement in the range of motion and in the measures of angles at resting position in lower limbs. No side-effects were reported and there was no weakness in the arms during the treatment.
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby TMrox » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:57 am

Thanks Jimmylegs for these very useful links.

As far as I understand, Dr Sam Kabbani (from the Kuwait team treating CCSVI) has done extensive minerals analysis among their patients.


*EDIT found the number of MS patiens with high calcium and low magnesium according to Dr Sam Kabbani (statement 29 oct):
http://tinyurl.com/2wonhdk

"I did 1458 hair test to MS patients and 1450 patients had high calcium and low magnesium. Only 8 had high mercury."

We should take these findings with a pich of salt. Before everyone rushes to buy magnesiums supplements we should bear in mind that this study is very specific to Kuwait. Mineral imbalances are very dependant of diet as well. Also mineral imbalances are common in the general population. According to Sam Kabanni calcium is high among people with MS and other 70 diseases.
In my particular case, I have high calcium and normal level of magnesium. The only way to find out our mineral levels is to get tested and to work with a doctor who knows how to.

Regarding to the best way to measure vit D, I found the following in the book “Dietary Reference Intakes for Calcium, Phosphorus, Magnesium, Vitamin D and Fluoride” written by the committee of the scientific evaluation of dietary reference intakes, food and nutrition board of the institute of Medicine, USA.


"Serum 25(OH)D
The serum 25(OH)D concentration is the best indicator for determining adequacy of vitamin D intake of an individual since it represents a summation of the total cutaneous production of vitamin D and the oral ingestion of either vitamin D2 or vitamin D3 (Haddad and Hahn, 1973; Holick, 1995). Thus, serum 25(OH)D will be used as the primary indicator of vitamin D adequacy.

Serum Vitamin D
The serum concentration of vitamin D is not indicative of vitamin
D status. As stated previously, its half-life is relatively short, and the blood concentrations can range from 0 to greater than 250 nmol/ liter (0 to 100 ng/ml) depending on an individual's recent ingestion of vitamin D and exposure to sunlight.

Serum 1,25(OH)2D
Similarly, the serum 1,25(OH)2D level is not a good indicator of
vitamin D. This hormone's serum concentrations are tightly regulated by a variety of factors, including circulating levels of serum calcium, phosphorus, parathyroid hormone, and other hormones (Fraser, 1980; Holick, 1995)."
Last edited by TMrox on Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Diagnosed with Transverse Myelitis in December 2008. Inflammatory demyelination of the spinal cord (c3-c5). No MS, but still CCSVI.
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:17 am

interesting TM. what was your serum magnesium level? please note the caution above regarding 'normal' results and magnesium. the finding that ms patients have lower magnesium levels than healthy controls has been investigated in other works than the work in kuwait, as linked above.
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby TMrox » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:43 am

I don't know if Kuwait has tested controls, that will be interesting to see if there is something related to diet, genetics, something else.

In my particular case, magnesium level has been within the reference range for both the blood test and hair tissue analysis. I don't have with me now the results from my blood test, but for hair was 3, within the reference range [2-11].

For calcium, they have been within the reference level in the blood tests but quite elevated in the hair analysis, 240. reference range [22-97]

The Kuwait team has done this mineral analysis using hair tissue samples. That is important to note. This kind of analysis to be telling ideally the hair needs to be free from dyes. In particular bleaches could cause an artifical elevation of calcium and perming could also elevate magnesium.

I don't know where they've done the hair tissue analysis. As far as I know this kind of analyis has to be done with a certified lab and there are not many around. I had to send my hair samples to the USA.
Diagnosed with Transverse Myelitis in December 2008. Inflammatory demyelination of the spinal cord (c3-c5). No MS, but still CCSVI.
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:46 pm

if you get a chance to review your serum magnesium numbers, as noted above check whether it's at least 0.9. the normal range starts at 0.7... too low!
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby TMrox » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:23 am

Thanks jimmilegs,

I had a good chat to my nutritionist today.

Yes, we checked that my magnesium levels are within normal range from blood tests and hair mineral analysis. that might be the case given my diet and magnesium supplements I've been taking.

my problems are the high calcium from hair analysis (in blood tests are normal), high copper and low vit D. Oh dear!

The best way to correct these is to involve a nutritionist, preferably one that is familiar with neuro conditions.

My nutritionist has explained far better the importance of Vit D and my diet/supplements requirements than other docs involved in my case.
Diagnosed with Transverse Myelitis in December 2008. Inflammatory demyelination of the spinal cord (c3-c5). No MS, but still CCSVI.
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:41 am

normal range .. does that mean .75? .95? hope it's the latter!
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Magnesium Levels Often Low

Postby MarkW » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:21 am

Great info and lots of detail so here is my summary:

Magnesium is often low in the modern Northern European diet (I recall something about how we use soil to grow cereals but I do have MS).

There is a cheap 'taste test' or you can have the expensive blood/hair analysis for greater accuracy. I take an Mg supplement.

Take plenty of D3 and get advice if your calcium is high. Be careful about depleating calcium too much or too quickly as we all know about calcium and bones.

MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Postby TMrox » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:56 am

Thanks Mark for your summary and suggestion.

Yes, high calcium is not a joke and is something that needs adequate help from a doc.

Just a comment, from all tests I've done (a very long list) the hair tissue analysis has been the cheapest.

But as a word of caution for anyone who might be interested in this test, there are a few labs around. Not all are certified. some don't even tell you the exact measurement of each mineral. they just say deficient or not. So one needs to shop around, usually nutritionists know which labs are more reliable.
Diagnosed with Transverse Myelitis in December 2008. Inflammatory demyelination of the spinal cord (c3-c5). No MS, but still CCSVI.
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