Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:29 am

luckily zinc status can help defend against infection both bacterial and viral, and increase dose response to supplemental vit d3. when i doubled my serum zinc levels, my dose response to d3 tripled. accidentally went too high, now i spend 1/3 what i used to on d3. not like it was pricy or anything. but i am pleased to know my body can use what it gets now that i am zinc replete.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby NZer1 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:15 pm

Ed my understanding from the article was that the VDR dysregulation is a deciding factor in the Vit D stats.

Whether you see the issue as primary by bacterial modification through a process of DNA modifying within immune and other cells or as the primary being Gene expression without bacterial invasion, or for that matter the outcome being determined by the two factors synergistically?

I get the impression this is going to be an important detail?

When diseases can be linked by factors such as this we are looking in the right direction. The follow on effects and symptoms are also linking!

jimmylegs has any of this info passed by you before?
This question gets my attention and I wonder what this will mean?
"So far, olmesartan is the only agent that
seems to satisfy these requirements."
Does this mean that re-establishing the Vit D 'system/functions' are helped by supplementing 'olmesartan?'


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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:51 am

heya, not this article but the bones of it have crossed my radar any number of times. first let's unpack a few things.

"vitamin D receptor (VDR) dysfunction that is proposed to be the key factor in the disease process."
i would agree with that.

"An intraphagocytic bacterial microbiota is proposed to be the primary cause of VDR dysfunction.2"
i disagree re causality. association yes, cause no.

"Because the VDR is key to the innate immune response, its dysfunction would lead to chronic infections with a wide range of pathogens, leading to inflammation and frequent elevation in autoimmune disease markers."
true.

so yes, i would agree that vdr function is key. but i have learned from my doctors and my own experience that infections are secondary to a deeper problem. one example, poor zinc status, which can increase risk of infection and VDR dysfunction, because the VDR has a structural ZINC FINGER PROTEIN. without enough zinc, you can't build receptors properly.

as for ""The choice of a VDR agonist is very important so as to achieve the right level of VDR activation without negatively impacting the activity of other nuclear receptors also involved in the immune response." i know, how about the one your body is built to deal with naturally...

"So far, olmesartan is the only agent that seems to satisfy these requirements." i think the key words here are 'so far' and 'agent'. so far, they haven't looked hard enough. and that appears to be because they are looking at AGENTS (as opposed to nutrients, i assume??)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_finger
"A zinc finger is a small protein structural motif that is characterized by the coordination of one or more zinc ions in order to stabilize the fold. Originally coined to describe the finger-like appearance of a hypothesized structure from Xenopus laevis transcription factor IIIA, the zinc finger name has now come to encompass a wide variety of differing protein structures.[1]
Proteins that contain zinc fingers (zinc finger proteins) are classified into several different structural families. Unlike many other clearly defined supersecondary structures such as Greek keys or β hairpins, there are a number of unique types of zinc fingers, each possessing a unique three-dimensional architecture. A particular zinc finger protein's class is determined by this three-dimensional structure, but it can also be recognized based on the primary structure of the protein or the identity of the ligands coordinating the zinc ion."

heard of prion diseases and the link to impaired protein folding? anyway back to vit d

"The VDR consists of two distinct functional parts, an amino-terminal DNA-binding domain with two zinc fingers (which determine DNA specificity) and a carboxy-terminal ligand binding domain." http://www.eje.org/content/138/4/372.full.pdf

Zinc-induced conformational changes in the DNA-binding domain of the vitamin D receptor determined by electrospray ionization mass spectrometry
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0597002298
"Both the multiply charged ESI and far-UV CD spectra of the Zn2+-titrated protein show that the binding of the first Zn2+ ion to the protein results in very little conformational change in the protein. The binding of a second Zn2+ ion resulted in a significant alteration in the structure of the protein as indicated by changes in both the multiply charged ESI and far-UV CD spectra. Much smaller changes were seen within the multiply charged ESI or far-UV CD spectra upon increasing the Zn2+ concentration beyond 2 mol/mol of protein."

i've said it before and i'll say it again, optimizing my zinc status more than tripled my dose response to vit d3 supplementation. to me that speaks to vastly improved vdr function.
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FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3

Postby MarkW » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:09 am

FIRST STEP TAKE VITAMIN D3 - 5000iu a day.
I started this very simple advice because the majority of pwMS have less than ideal levels of Vit D3. This dose of D3 is highly unlikely to cause any problems in pwMS. This is my researched professional opinion. If you have spent a significant amount of money on de-stenosis it is essential for immune and vein health to have a minimum Vit D3 blood level of 125mmol/L (50ng/ml). Taking Vit 3 is also much cheaper than de-stenosis.
There is a lot of very good advice on this thread about steps 2, 3, 4, etc. Please do not distracted by these later steps and miss the first step. There are pwMS who cannot have their level of D3 and essential minerals checked. Then steps 2 onwards are not possible but STEP ONE is essential and costs less than 50 USD per year.

The depth of background on this thread is wonderful, please keep on posting.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:31 pm

yeah 5000 IU per day was my first step originally too. worked great, right up until it caused my magnesium deficiency. what with the severe dysphagia and breathing difficulties, thought i was going to die - until a helpful pharmacist nudged me in the magnesium direction. what a lifesaver!
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby NZer1 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:44 pm

Thanks jimmylegs for you help :)

J is there a situation where zinc, magnesium and calcium can be supplemented to high?

Trying to think of a compromise when testing is not a reality and Vit D and other levels need to be boosted and also I guess when people want to experiment and boost without knowledge!

Gards,
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:21 pm

np. and yes you can certainly overdo these things. unfortunately, afaic, if you megadose without bloodwork, you're playing with fire. i've been playing with fire even with bloodwork, and have been occasionally burnt. c'est la vie in this game :S
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby NZer1 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:00 pm

Thanks again jimmylegs :)

The next thought that has been hounding me is the hydration effect?

Because of my personal situation on the ABx protocol I am needing to drink lots and lots of water. That has me wondering what the general hydration is of PwMS.

The next thought goes to the study results from testing hydration involvement in CCSVI. I don't have a link to quote and the results showed that the PwMS had hydration issues.

So what will that also mean for supplement absorption and if there is any activation of immune system will toxins be flushed? Vit D for instance may have some connection to hydration?

It's summer here now and 47.5 c yesterday so I am drinking like a fish to exit the endo-toxins now that I am on stage three of the protocol. Endo-toxins don't taste very nice!

Regards,
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby Squeakycat » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:11 pm

NZer1 wrote:Ed my understanding from the article was that the VDR dysregulation is a deciding factor in the Vit D stats.

Whether you see the issue as primary by bacterial modification through a process of DNA modifying within immune and other cells or as the primary being Gene expression without bacterial invasion, or for that matter the outcome being determined by the two factors synergistically?

I think your interpretation of the article is correct, but the question is whether the article is correct.

If they were able to say "we found this specific bacteria in the cells of people with Disease X and we have shown that this bacteria excretes this specific enzyme that disables the Vitamin D Receptor," then it would be easy to accept this theory.

But they aren't able to do that. All the "proof" is theoretical or secondary.

I realize that this is the nature of some problems, evidence cannot be direct, but in this case, they are asking reader to accept a lot of purely hypothetical theories and secondary evidence.

Stepping back, I take a very simple view of this. The body depends on things that were abundant on earth: water, air, sunlight. It evolved to make most use of these abundant resources.

What has dramatically changed in the past few hundred years and even in the past 50 years is that people are not getting sufficient sunlight and as a consequences, diseases that result from this are growing.

Further, the body has also evolved to have alternative pathways to do most things so I find it hard to view the natural history of a disease like MS as one in which there is a single path that has to be correct to accomplish a goal. I don't know what it is, but there is a backup pathway for a dysfunctional VDR. There always is.

Lots of research still to be done before we know all of this.

While not specifically doubting their theory, I would still get my 20 minutes in the sun every day or take a vitamin D + supplement. Sunlight is like oxygen. Pretty vital to human health. Everything tells me that has to be true, even if the science is still exploring the details of this.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3

Postby Squeakycat » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:31 pm

MarkW wrote:FIRST STEP TAKE VITAMIN D3 - 5000iu a day.
I started this very simple advice because the majority of pwMS have less than ideal levels of Vit D3. This dose of D3 is highly unlikely to cause any problems in pwMS. This is my researched professional opinion. If you have spent a significant amount of money on de-stenosis it is essential for immune and vein health to have a minimum Vit D3 blood level of 125mmol/L (50ng/ml). Taking Vit 3 is also much cheaper than de-stenosis.
There is a lot of very good advice on this thread about steps 2, 3, 4, etc. Please do not distracted by these later steps and miss the first step. There are pwMS who cannot have their level of D3 and essential minerals checked. Then steps 2 onwards are not possible but STEP ONE is essential and costs less than 50 USD per year.

The depth of background on this thread is wonderful, please keep on posting.
Kind regards,
MarkW

The modified version of this is take 5,000 IU/day of vitamin D3, or if you are south of the 35th parallel spend 20 minutes in the sun around noon each day which will provide 20,000 IU a day. Sunlight is as vital to human health as air and water.

But I think we should explore what else is required. There is no question in my mind that calcium is vital. Vitamin D cannot act without it. It also fits with evolutionary history in terms of abundant resources on earth for life: oxygen, water, sunlight and calcium. Magnesium in certainly in the top 10 of abundant mineral resources and seems to be intimately involved in what vitamin D does in the body. Zinc is up there, but not at the top of the list in the way air, water and calcium and even magnesium are.

I know it is vital in bone growth so it doesn't surprise me that there are also zinc fingers on VDRs as there are in bones.

While there are known widespread deficiencies in vitamin D, we may be less deficient in calcium and these other minerals, but to the extent that they are vital to the functioning of vitamin D, they are just as essential.

We need to keep exploring this.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby MarkW » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:12 am

jimmylegs wrote:yeah 5000 IU per day was my first step originally too. worked great, right up until it caused my magnesium deficiency. what with the severe dysphagia and breathing difficulties, thought i was going to die - until a helpful pharmacist nudged me in the magnesium direction. what a lifesaver!

Thanks for your post Jimmylegs. Your reaction was unusual. How long before these occurred ?
Involving a healthcare professional is a good next step, especially if they can do blood tests for D3, Ca, Zn, Mg, Se.
I am simply giving a first step to pwMS who cannot get to step two.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby MarkW » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:21 am

jimmylegs wrote:np. and yes you can certainly overdo these things. unfortunately, afaic, if you megadose without bloodwork, you're playing with fire. i've been playing with fire even with bloodwork, and have been occasionally burnt. c'est la vie in this game :S

Thanks for the real life experience on high doses of minerals. The problem is that our western diet is far too varied to give general advice on Zinc, Calcium. Magnesium or Selenium even after blood level tests. Dietary changes are my preferred way of getting to a good mineral balance but supplements are often easier.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3

Postby MarkW » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:39 am

Squeakycat wrote:
MarkW wrote:FIRST STEP TAKE VITAMIN D3 - 5000iu a day.
I started this very simple advice because the majority of pwMS have less than ideal levels of Vit D3. This dose of D3 is highly unlikely to cause any problems in pwMS.

The modified version of this is take 5,000 IU/day of vitamin D3, or if you are south of the 35th parallel spend 20 minutes in the sun around noon each day which will provide 20,000 IU a day. Sunlight is as vital to human health as air and water.

Hello Ed,
If I were fortunate enough to live below the 35th parallel I would get my D3 naturally from sunshine. Oily fish could provide D3 as well but most pwMS find it easier to take 5000iu/day in one small capsule. My advice is to achieve a minimum blood D3 level of 125mmol/L and keep essential minerals in balance. Most pwMS should be able to arrange blood tests to have themselves checked. However, as a low risk first step, my advice to pwMS remains to take 5000iu D3. We need to collect data and offer advice on the next steps, as you say. I am horrified that the majority of pwMS have not taken the first step, let alone any next steps.
A lot of educating to be done.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby MarkW » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:49 am

NZer1 wrote: is there a situation where zinc, magnesium and calcium can be supplemented to high?
Nigel

Hello Nigel,
Hypercalcemia is well documented. If you find a good summary with impact on D3 explained, please post.
Thanks,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Take Vitamin D3 Before & After De-Stenosis.

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:39 am

agree re dietary changes being best. i'm continually analyzing ppls diets for nutrient density and IF ratings. general recommendations on supplements do tend to suck without using adaptive management, ie plan, implement, monitor (bloodwork), and revise as necessary. there's no way i take the same high doses of supplements now that i did in the beginning. as i mentioned above, my zinc status is way too good to be taking high dose d3 each day. i take 10,000IU once a week right now. once i get off my butt and go to the lab i'll know if i'm taking enough.

yes, supplements must come after healthful food, and must be done in the appropriate forms and doses. typically if an imbalance is chronic ie has developed over a long time period, megadose therapy is required to 'reboot' and then diet can keep you going from there. that approach was the origin of my very first vit d3 megadose. i had calculated how long it was going to take me to get my levels up to an optimal target while taking 4000IU per day, (if i recall correctly it was on the order of 6mo +) and thought 'no thanks!' too long.

now as for magnesium depletion, i knew vit d3 had to be balanced with minerals right from the get go. i was taking a cal mag d3 liquid, which contained a few hundred IU of d3, plus the 4000IU liquid d3 on top. i took them together each day. when i happened on the smart pharmacist, i had just come from a visit to emerg and a chest xray (i was strongly persuaded by classmates due to visible/audible distress wrt breathing). chest xray was clear. i stopped in the pharmacy to ask a question about cancer nutrition on someone else's behalf, but the pharmacist was more interested in my obvious problems and he isolated magnesium depletion from d3 supplementation in about 10 seconds. i tried splitting up my magnesium, taking some with d3, and some at a different time, for two days and for the first time in months i had relief. during that time i don't imagine i would have known enough about mag to be emphasizing it in diet. as for timing, that would have been around the end of 2007 i would say, which means i was taking d3 for a year or so before things started to get really bad. it took at least a year for me to lose the awareness (an internal 'knocking' sensation) in my throat of the magnesium kicking in, each time i took a dose. only recently have i been able to back off daily magnesium supplementation without feeling it in my muscles within a day or two.
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