Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby NZer1 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:26 am

Hi Team,
Can we put together a group of Vits and minerals etc to be tested as a group rather than only Vit D testing?

There are definitely members of this group that work as a synergy and when one is low, weak or missing then the balance has gone and the whole group need to be adjusted to make the Vit D entire process work without starving the others and causing extra symptoms and 'dis-ease' in our systems that are already under 'stress' !

Magnesium
Calcium
Zinc
Copper
Vit D

I have no idea what else at this minute, Ms. Jimmylegs do you have some thoughts please.

:)
Nigel
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby Squeakycat » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:00 pm

NZer1 wrote:Hi Team,
Can we put together a group of Vits and minerals etc to be tested as a group rather than only Vit D testing?

There are definitely members of this group that work as a synergy and when one is low, weak or missing then the balance has gone and the whole group need to be adjusted to make the Vit D entire process work without starving the others and causing extra symptoms and 'dis-ease' in our systems that are already under 'stress' !

Magnesium
Calcium
Zinc
Copper
Vit D

I have no idea what else at this minute, Ms. Jimmylegs do you have some thoughts please.

:)
Nigel
Having no expertise in this, I nevertheless think your list is correct. The body is a system so everything interacts with everything else which means that everything is critical in some way. But the list above covers the minerals that have clearly been shown to be related to the action of vitamin D so it seems that this constitutes the core of critical minerals.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:04 pm

read here for details on all these nutrients. regimens-f22/topic2489.html
over the years i have gone back often to re-organize this first post of my regimen thread.
please feel free to review. i look forward to your feedback. :)
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:23 pm

also this related announcement has been at the top of the main ccsvi page for going on a couple years now:
chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic17004.html
it introduces the concepts and links back to the details in my regimen thread.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby MarkW » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:37 am

NZer1 wrote:Hi Team,
Can we put together a group of Vits and minerals etc to be tested as a group rather than only Vit D testing?
There are definitely members of this group that work as a synergy and when one is low, weak or missing then the balance has gone and the whole group need to be adjusted to make the Vit D entire process work without starving the others and causing extra symptoms and 'dis-ease' in our systems that are already under 'stress' !
Magnesium, Calcium, Zinc, Copper, Vit D
Nigel

Hello Nigel,
For me, the evidence says supplement vitamin D3 (5-10K iu/day) before doing any testing. This is because the whole population lacks D3 and it is very cheap. Then test for D3 in blood as well as the metals. For a significant percentage of pwMS just giving D3 will be sufficient. The metals/minerals are being derived from our diets, even unhealthy first world diets give our bodies a chance to adsorp its needs.
If D3 level in blood is not above 125mmol/L after one month of 10k iu/day then metals/minerals levels need to be considered. My approach is to add one mineral at a time unless the results show serious deficiencies because the uptake of the minerals can be interdependant.
The next step for the team is to agree target levels for Ca, Zn, Cu, Mg and Se (Selenium). I will quote one of Jimmylegs posts on Zinc. We need to give target ranges and where we found the supporting data. Also consider appropriate levels for vein health as well as MS in general. I hope that everyone is agreed that vit D3 above 125mmol/L supports vein health as well as MS in general.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Zinc target ???

Postby MarkW » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:57 am

jimmylegs wrote: re the zinc, the lab is using patient values to describe that normal range (ie 9-17). the research range according to the WHO is 11.5-18.5. so you're (NZer1) 0.3 above the bottom of the internationally accepted normal range. even though it looks like you have a comfortable buffer between your zinc value and the 9 at the lab's bottom end, you don't. it's the usual deceiving situation. i feel sorry for all the folks who had zinc tested, came in above 9 but below 11.5, are actually deficient by any standard except this lab's, and were told their levels are normal. even though all that means is that their levels match other sickies who showed up there.
oh fyi zinc is naturally highest in the morning so if you want to know the worst case scenario, have your testing done as late in the afternoon as possible

Zinc is the first mineral I would supplement as it could be a key factor in vit D3 adsorption and utilisation in pwMS. From personal test results and using the research range of the WHO (11.5-18.5) I suggest a target for pwMS of 15 to 18.5 (reference please Jimmylegs).
Your comments please team and others,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:26 pm

personally, based on repeated research findings, i wouldn't go below 18 for zinc. it's a narrow truly optimal band, from what i've been able to ascertain. but, go no higher than 19 or 20. more is not always better!

FYI the references for all the levels i have specified in my first regimen post (linked above) are scattered throughout my regimen pages in the order i came upon them in research. it will be a bit of work to get through all the pages to find everything, but i will start - i'm fine to start a reference section.

luckily, it doesn't have to be just me :) anyone who feels like having a sift through my regimen and happens to stumble on a reference, please do feel free to send it to me via pm. i'll build it into a nutrition research citation list.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby NZer1 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:53 pm

Researchers Identify How Omega-3 and Vitamin D Enhance The Immune System

Interested in increasing your overall health and energy level? Would you like to prevent cancer, heart disease, alzheimer's and depression? Perhaps you also want to treat diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis and a host of other diseases. Researchers have pinpointed the mechanism behind vitamin D3 and omega-3's ability to enhance the immune system and why the two nutrients are so critical to our health.

"Almost every disease decreases in frequency and duration as we move away from equatorial populations, and the data shows that there is a minimum of a 1000 percent increase for many diseases in countries furthest from the equator, however we have obtained the same results based on data through populations and vitamin D supplementation," said Dr. Anthony Petaku who studies the effects of Vitamin D2 and D3 on mutating cells.

It's been known that vitamin D can prevent that genetic damage. When vitamin D binds to specific receptors, it sets off a chain of events by which many toxic agents including cancer cells are rendered harmless. However, if there is not enough vitamin D the system can become overwhelmed and cancer can develop. "This is one of the reasons that people living closest to the equator have a much lower incidence (or absence) of specific cancers which consequently increase in locations further from the equator," said McGill professors Dr. John White.

Many Alzheimer's researchers have long touted fish oil, by pill or diet, as an accessible and inexpensive "weapon" that may delay or prevent this debilitating disease.

The highest average intakes of the sunshine vitamin are associated with a 77% decrease in the risk of Alzheimer's as reported by researchers in the The Journal of Gerontology: Medical Science.
A new pilot study, published in the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease, identifies key genes and signalling networks regulated by vitamin D3 and the omega-3 fatty acid DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) that may help control inflammation and improve plaque clearance.
Led by Dr Milan Fiala from the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA in the United States, the research h team explained that his team's previous lab work has helped clarify key mechanisms involved in helping vitamin D3 clear amyloid-beta, however their new data extends these previous findings with vitamin D3 and highlights the role of omega-3 DHA.
Alzheimer's Progress
The build-up of plaque from beta-amyloid deposits is associated with an increase in brain cell damage and death from oxidative stress. This is related to a loss of cognitive function and an increased risk of Alzheimer's, the most common form of dementia and currently affects over 13 million people worldwide.
The direct and indirect cost of Alzheimer care is over $100 billion (81bn Euros) in the US, while direct costs in the UK are estimated at 22bn Euros.
Previous work by Fiala and his team, based on the function of immune cells called macrophages that had been isolated from Alzheimer's Disease (AD) patients' has suggested that there are two groups of patients and macrophages.
Fiala and his colleagues also found that the immune cells in people that suffer from Alzheimer's Disease express inflammatory genes differentially to healthy controls.
Two distinct transcription patterns were found to further define the two groups: Group 1 had an increased transcription of inflammatory genes, while Group 2 had decreased transcription.
"Further study may help us identify if these two distinct transcription patterns of inflammatory genes could possibly distinguish either two stages or two types of Alzheimer's disease," said Mathew Mizwicki, who also worked on the study.
Study Details
In the new study the research team drew blood samples from both AD patients and healthy controls, then isolated critical immune cells called macrophages from the blood.
Macrophages are responsible for gobbling up amyloid-beta and other waste products in the brain and body.
The team incubated the immune cells overnight with amyloid-beta and added either an active form of vitamin D3 (1alpha,25--dihydroxyvitamin D3) or an active form of the omega-3 fatty acid DHA (resolvin D1) to some of the cells to gauge the effect they had on inflammation and amyloid-beta absorption.
Both the 1alpha, 25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 and resolvin D1 were found to improve the ability of the macrophages in AD patients' to break-down amyloid-beta, and they inhibited the cell death that is induced by amyloid-beta, said the researchers.
While researchers found that 1alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 and resolvin D1 greatly improved the clearance of amyloid-beta by macrophages in patients in both groups, they discovered subtleties in the effects the two substances had on the expression of inflammatory genes.
In Group 1, the increased-inflammation group, macrophages showed a decrease of inflammatory activation;
in Group 2, the group with decreased inflammation, macrophages showed an increase of the inflammatory genes IL1 and TLRs when either 1alpha,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 or resolvin D1 were added.
"We may find that we need to carefully balance the supplementation with vitamin D3 and omega-3 fatty acids, depending on each patient in order to help promote efficient clearing of amyloid-beta," Fiala said.
"This is a first step in understanding what form and in which patients these nutrition substances might work best."
The next step is a larger study to help confirm the findings, as well as a clinical trial with omega-3 DHA, the researchers said.
Fiala said that an active (non-oxidised) form of omega-3 DHA -- which is the precursor of the resolvin D1 used in this study -- may work better than more commercially available forms of DHA, which generally are not as well protected against oxidation.
Dosage Information

Omega-3

There is no established recommended daily intake for omega-3s, but a healthy diet containing significant amounts of foods rich in this essential fatty acid is clearly wise. By increasing your intake of omega-3 fatty acids, you will naturally bring the ratio of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids back into a healthier, 2-1 or (optimally) 1-1 balance.
Try to reduce your consumption of omega-6-rich foods at the same time that you increase your intake of omega-3-rich foods in the following categories:
--Marine sources: Atlantic salmon and other fatty, preferably cold-water fish, including herring (both Atlantic and Pacific), sardines, Atlantic halibut, bluefish, tuna, and Atlantic mackerel.
As a reasonable substitute (or even an occasional alternative) for fresh fish, commercial fish oil capsules are available containing omega-3s such as DHA and EPA.
--Plant sources: hempseed, flaxseed, flaxseed oil, walnuts, and leafy green vegetables such as purslane are all good sources of alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), the plant-based omega-3. A quarter-cup (1 ounce) of walnuts supplies about 2 grams of plant-based omega-3 fatty acids, slightly more than is found in 3 ounces of salmon.
Vitamin D

Vitamin D refers to two biologically inactive precursors - D3, also known as cholecalciferol, and D2, also known as ergocalciferol. The former, produced in the skin on exposure to UVB radiation (290 to 320 nm), is said to be more bioactive.
Both D3 and D2 precursors are hydroxylated in the liver and kidneys to form 25- hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D), the non-active 'storage' form, and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25(OH)2D), the biologically active form that is tightly controlled by the body.
While our bodies do manufacture vitamin D on exposure to sunshine (UV-B radiation with a wavelength between 290 and 315 nm), the levels in some northern countries are so weak during the winter months that our body makes no vitamin D at all,
"The Endocrine Society Practice Guidelines, compared with those of the Food and Nutritional Board of the Institute of Medicine, recommend a 2- to 3-fold increase in vitamin D3 intake, with a tolerable upper intake level of 10,000 IU/d," they explained.

Vitamin D is best obtained by sunlight, but if pursuing supplementation, look for high quality vitamin D3 cholecalciferol and stay away from those with dangerous preservatives such as potassium sorbate.
Mae Chan holds degrees in both physiology and nutritional sciences. She is also blogger and and technology enthusiast with a passion for disseminating information about health.
http://preventdisease.com/news/13/02131 ... dium=email
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby MarkW » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:45 pm

Hello Nigel,
Interesting info but too complex for me. I simply want pwMS to get their vit D3 blood level above 125mmol/L.
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby MarkW » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:52 pm

jimmylegs wrote:personally, based on repeated research findings, i wouldn't go below 18 for zinc. it's a narrow truly optimal band, from what i've been able to ascertain. but, go no higher than 19 or 20. more is not always better!

Hello Jimmylegs,
Would a range of 17 to 18.5 be satisfactory from the references you have read ? I prefer to stay within the WHO range and set a target that is attainable. 18 to 18.5 sounds too narrow for real clinical practice. Your thoughts please.
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:51 pm

hey there. 17 is actually the number i've teased out from research for an optimal serum copper level. you want the zinc slightly higher, so that the zinc:copper ratio is a bit above 1. i imagine you know high copper/zinc ratio is a risk factor for all sorts of illnesses.

the study i used to select a healthy control value for zinc was done in 2006 and involved 1,113 healthy controls, which is a pretty darned awesome n value for statistical significance. actual findings 18.20 micromol/l (95% CI=17.90-18.36) in males and 18.36 micromol/l (95% CI=18.05-18.66). in females. note that these are average levels, so although yes some will be lower than these mid-18 values, some will be still higher. i therefore have a somewhat dim view of the top end of the WHO range.

i have found repeated studies since, indicating average serum levels of 18.xx in healthy controls. surprisingly consistent and surprisingly tight ranges. yes, there are some studies showing lower average levels in controls (not vs patients, just not quite in the 18 range), but in those cases it's the sort of study where the controls are simply free of the specific disease being studied, not necessarily 'healthy' (i suspect these 'control' cases may be individuals that have not sufficiently depleted hepatic zinc stores to manifest disease.. YET!). whereas the study i'm citing above was looking at strictly *healthy* individuals. i also found a study more recently where average levels in healthy children were up above 20. 20.36 was the average, if memory serves. i'd have to go back to look at the range, but obviously that means that the highest levels detected were above 20. i'm hesitant to recommend levels above 20 for adults, since that one study of children is the only one i've seen to date, recording levels that high. although on the flip side, i haven't seen any studies suggesting that levels between 20-21 are toxic, either. levels have to be a chunk higher than that for toxicity (eg 32.6 umol/L).

so anyway. as stated above, my confidence in the validity of the upper end of the WHO range is low. it's a unique case in my experience to date. often i've found optimal levels of a nutrient occupy say, the upper half of a normal range (eg magnesium). or a narrow band within the upper half (eg uric acid). but in the case of zinc, i think the top end of the optimal range is actually OUTSIDE the top end of the established 'normal' range.

graphic (not precisely to scale): http://www.flickr.com/photos/93410036@N ... hotostream
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby MarkW » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:30 am

Hello Jimmylegs,
Thanks for the link. I propose a Zinc range of 17.5 to 18.5 micromol/L for adults with MS. This is for pwMs whose vit D3 level does not increase with just a vit D3 supplement (upto 10k iu/day). I suggest just measuring D3 in blood first, then checking Zn etc. I prefer to stay within the WHO range as it makes it much simpler for pwMS to say they need this, when consulting their physician. Your thoughts please on the easiest way to increase Zinc levels from diet.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:38 am

personally, based on the science, i am thoroughly comfortable establishing an optimal serum zinc range outside the WHO normal range. especially given that the WHO is perfectly aware of what amounts to a global zinc deficiency underlying their collection of 'normal' data.

i'd have to go back and investigate in more detail than i have time for, in order to determine whether the WHO range is based on research that significantly predates the research i have recently found supporting a higher optimal range.

anyway. as for your recommendation, 17.5-18.5 shouldn't be too low. rather, that level is much more likely to be significantly higher than average joe. can only do good to those who test and find themselves in the 12-13 ballpark for serum zinc.

as for your question re optimizing zinc nutrition from diet: avoid combining zinc rich foods with foods that bind with or deplete zinc (such as gluten grains, improperly prepared legumes, dairy, sugar, alcohol ...list look familiar?)
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125mmol/L (50ng/ml)

Postby HappyPoet » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:34 pm

Thanks, everyone, for doing all this research.

MarkW wrote:The next step for the team is to agree target levels for Ca, Zn, Cu, Mg and Se (Selenium) ... I hope that everyone is agreed that vit D3 above 125mmol/L supports vein health as well as MS in general.

At-home Vit D test kit: http://www.vitamindtest.org.uk/ £25 UK £30 overseas
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Paper from Berlin Neuros

Postby MarkW » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:31 am

Hello Ed,
A useful paper (not bad for neuros) but already listed at the top of page 22.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Squeakycat wrote:Though quite technical, well worth the effort to read to get a comprehensive overview of this question. The authors are part of the group in Berlin (Clinical and Experimental Research Center for Multiple Sclerosis, Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin) conducting a major study of the effectiveness of vitamin D supplementation in managing MS. Full details on this study here.
Can we prevent or treat multiple sclerosis by individualised vitamin D supply?
Jan Dörr Andrea Döring and Friedemann Paul
Abstract
Apart from its principal role in bone metabolism and calcium homeostasis, vitamin D has been attributed additional effects including an immunomodulatory, anti-inflammatory, and possibly even neuroprotective capacity which implicates a possible role of vitamin D in autoimmune diseases like multiple sclerosis (MS). Indeed, several lines of evidence including epidemiologic, preclinical, and clinical data suggest that reduced vitamin D levels and/or dysregulation of vitamin D homeostasis is a risk factor for the development of multiple sclerosis on the one hand, and that vitamin D serum levels are inversely associated with disease activity and progression on the other hand. However, these data are not undisputable, and many questions regarding the preventive and therapeutic capacity of vitamin D in multiple sclerosis remain to be answered. In particular, available clinical data derived from interventional trials using vitamin D supplementation as a therapeutic approach in MS are inconclusive and partly contradictory. In this review, we summarise and critically evaluate the existing data on the possible link between vitamin D and multiple sclerosis in light of the crucial question whether optimization of vitamin D status may impact the risk and/or the course of multiple sclerosis.
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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