Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:51 pm

NZer1 wrote:Vit D is a process factor in life across the board and how it acts in every individual is going to be different. Diet and Vit D go hand in hand because of the absorption of diet and the body needs to use the content of the diet to function, whether you are on the Equator or the extremes, with or without resources to balance the diet as you have explained to me using the tomato analogy. ;)

:)
Nigel

I would put this a little differently. Vitamin D, sunshine, appears to play a role almost as extensive and critical as water and air in humans. We basically evolved to take advantage of these three critical factors which are universally abundant in the environment.

We have changed a lot of things. We moved much further away from the equator than where humans evolved.

During the industrial revolution, we moved from the farm to the city and got much less exposure to sunshine.

Since the advent of TV, we spend much more time indoors than out.

So these are critical factors in terms of how much UV-B exposure we get that undoubtedly have a major impact on health.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby NZer1 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:57 pm

Thanks Ed,
I would add that the Vit D level in Life is part of a synergy and is a vital component when combined with many other elements, minerals and vitamins in a matrix ;)

Found this indicator of what I am tracking,
"Magnesium is a 'Master Nutrient'"
The Magnesium Facts show that magnesium is even MORE than an important nutrient in its own right, but that it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to be sufficient in magnesium in order to be able to be sufficient in OTHER nutrients as well!
What this means is that if you are deficient in magnesium, then other nutrients that you are taking in may not be going where they are supposed to be going or doing what they are supposed to be doing! For instance, there is much research that MANY nutrients that can't be replaced unless magnesium is sufficient:
Thiamine or Vitamin B1
Vitamin D
Magnesium Deficiency Causes Low Potassium
It's needed for normal Blood Calcium Levels
When these nutrients are given to replace severe deficiency, in some cases, they don't work to fix the problems that they are supposed to be fixing. And studies have found, much to the researchers' amazement, that the nutrients WILL work if they are given with magnesium!
Read more: http://www.easy-immune-health.com/magne ... z2QZyMxlP0
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:02 pm

fyi in addition to low d3, magnesium, zinc, and copper issues have already been linked in research to ms...
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby NZer1 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:11 pm

Your posting faster than me Ed.
The interplay exists between Vit D and Calcium and also Calcium and Magnesium from what I understand that there needs to be levels in each in order for any individual to be of use. If calcium is high then it requires more Mag to enable decrease to occur, if Calcium is high Vit D is not able to process to being bio available, and if Mag is low there are symptoms eg Fibro type symptoms.
So testing is important and yet it is know to be inaccurate as well, the Vit D is the best indicator of the three of imbalance though.
So one supplemented may fail, but balancing the group will effectively change negative symptom expression.
Mag deficiency is said to be a World Wide issue due to soil crop depletion and repetitive cropping without supplementing to replace stores. Plus other factors of Modern Western Lifestyles.
Again the forms of supplementing are important.

;)
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby NZer1 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:13 pm

Jimmylegs have you noticed how slow us Males are at picking up on what you have been saying for years?
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:38 pm

NZer1 wrote:Found this indicator of what I am tracking,
"Magnesium is a 'Master Nutrient'"
The Magnesium Facts show that magnesium is even MORE than an important nutrient in its own right, but that it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to be sufficient in magnesium in order to be able to be sufficient in OTHER nutrients as well!
What this means is that if you are deficient in magnesium, then other nutrients that you are taking in may not be going where they are supposed to be going or doing what they are supposed to be doing! For instance, there is much research that MANY nutrients that can't be replaced unless magnesium is sufficient:
Thiamine or Vitamin B1
Vitamin D
Magnesium Deficiency Causes Low Potassium
It's needed for normal Blood Calcium Levels
When these nutrients are given to replace severe deficiency, in some cases, they don't work to fix the problems that they are supposed to be fixing. And studies have found, much to the researchers' amazement, that the nutrients WILL work if they are given with magnesium!
Read more: http://www.easy-immune-health.com/magne ... z2QZyMxlP0

I don't see a single article in the scientific literature referenced on the Easy Immune Health site that says anything about the need for magnesium in relation to anything other than potassium. There is a direct correlation between magnesium levels and potassium levels in most of the foods high in magnesium and unlike Vitamin D which has few dietary sources, there are lots of them for magnesium and potassium.

A good source for an overview of magnesium is the NIH's Office of Dietary Supplement's Fact sheet on Magnesium. They do note that there is a high level of magnesium deficiency in the general population, something I was not aware of.

So to net this all out: good health means having adequate levels of all essential vitamins and minerals. Probably best if these are obtained through food sources rather than supplements, though in the case of Vitamin D, the best source is UV-B exposure, something that many people simply cannot get which means that the only viable alternative is supplementation.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby NZer1 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:59 pm

Just in

"IMPORTANT: If You Take Vitamin D, You Need K2

This is a really crucial point: If you opt for oral vitamin D, you need to also consume in your food or take supplemental vitamin K2.

"There are so many people on the vitamin-D-mega-dose bandwagon, taking more and more of vitamin D. And it could absolutely be causing harm if you are lacking the K2 to complete the job to get the calcium where it's supposed to be," Rheaume-Bleue warns.

"We don't see symptoms of vitamin D toxicity very often. But when we do, those symptoms are inappropriate calcification. That's the symptom of vitamin D toxicity. And it is actually a lack of vitamin K2 that can cause that..."

While the ideal or optimal ratios between vitamin D and vitamin K2 have yet to be elucidated, Rheume-Bleue suggests about 150-200 micrograms of K2 will meet the need for the "average" healthy person.

The latest vitamin D dosing recommendations, which call for about 8,000 IU's of vitamin D3 per day if you're an adult, means you'd need in the neighborhood of 800 to 1,000 micrograms (0.8 to 1 milligram/mg) of vitamin K2, but the jury is still out.

"My earlier recommendation was not taking into account people who were doing high dose of vitamin D supplementation," Rheaume-Bleue says. "That's where it gets a little bit more technical. It seems that for the average person, around 200 to 280 micrograms will activate your K2 proteins and do a lot of good for your bones and your heart. If you're taking high levels of vitamin D... then I would recommend taking more K2."

The good news is that vitamin K2 has no toxicity. No toxic effects have ever been demonstrated in the medical literature.

"The reason why K2 doesn't have potential toxic effect is that all vitamin K2 does is activate K2 proteins. It will activate all the K2 proteins it finds. And if they're all activated and you take extra K2, it simply won't do that. That's why we don't see a potential for toxicity the way we do with vitamin A or D," she says."
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... in-k2.aspx

I was told to take K2 (MK7) / Nattokinase 100mcg as part of the CPn protocol! I have been on it now for a few weeks. (Vitacost)
;)
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:27 pm

@NZ :D :D :D that was a good LOL

why yes now that you say so, it does occur to me :)

a collection of chats about magnesium here at TIMS, 2006-2012
natural-approach-f27/topic18568.html

and on zinc, 2008-2012
natural-approach-f27/topic18579.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:51 pm

NZer1 wrote:Just in

"IMPORTANT: If You Take Vitamin D, You Need K2

This is a really crucial point: If you opt for oral vitamin D, you need to also consume in your food or take supplemental vitamin K2.
Nigel

Whoa there partner!

You also should brush your teeth, say your prayers and kiss your mum good night.

All my alarms went off when I saw this unsupported assertion: "We don't see symptoms of vitamin D toxicity very often. But when we do, those symptoms are inappropriate calcification. That's the symptom of vitamin D toxicity. And it is actually a lack of vitamin K2 that can cause that..."

That's complete nonsense. We know very well how high doses of Vitamin D cause hypercalcemia and it has everything to do with the effects on PTH, and increased calcium absorption and nothing to do with K2.

I've been banging around high dose Vitamin D quite intensively for the past 12 years as a way to control calcium in cats suffering renal failure. I don't recall ever seeing anything that said K2 was critical to the absorption or conversion of Vitamin D and certainly nothing to suggest that it plays a role in Vitamin D induced hypercalcemia.

I just did a quick PubMed search and while there are 217 articles mentioning both K2 and Vitamin D, none appear to be in the context that you laid out here. K2 is required for bone health and that involvement is tied to the interactions between K2 and calcium. Vitamin D only gets mentioned in this context because it is usually deficient, not because it has any specific link to K2.

So I repeat. Good health probably means that we shouldn't be deficient in any essential mineral or vitamin, but that is not the same as saying that any particular mineral or vitamin is vitally linked to another.

The body is a system so at some level, everything is linked to everything else, but again, that is not to say that there is a direct link between K2 and Vitamin D.

Just my opinion. I'm completely open to any scientific evidence that there is a direct link requiring supplementation, but until then, I think just eating well and getting enough solar exposure are probably all that is necessary, assuming of course, no specific deficiencies.

I know that natto is a good source of K2 so my guess is that Vegemite is too so you are probably completely covered.

We're happy little Vegemites wrote:Little Vegemites
As bright as bright can be.
We all enjoy our Vegemite
For breakfast, lunch, and tea.
Our mummies say we're growing stronger
Every single week,
Because we love our Vegemite
We all adore our Vegemite
It puts a rose in every cheek.
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby NZer1 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:51 pm

Smile allot, thanks Ed.

I get your point, again, and/BUT I do wonder if research is missing the point at times when research is looking at things it is mostly relevant to the purpose.
If there is a paper that looks at the relevance of the synthesis of K2, Vit D, Calcium and Magnesium with Zinc and copper thrown in for good measure I would really butter my sammies with Vegemite or even Marmite. Mum has moved on btw.

I wonder if you ask a 'Specialist' rather than rely on research whether you would get the same answer?

I will keep looking for insights from basic Net searches and see what I can find. ;)

:)
Nigel

ps is it possible that K2 is not required by Cats but it is for Human synthesis of Vit D?
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:02 pm

NZer1 wrote: is it possible that K2 is not required by Cats but it is for Human synthesis of Vit D?

Yes, but there is virtually no information on vitamin D and cats so I have been forced to look at information on humans and mice.

I do know that dogs love Vegemite, but cats can't stand it, but I'm not sure what that says about Vitamin K2. :>)
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby NZer1 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:34 pm

Love it. Poor Cats and their attitudes!
Intravenous Vegemite? Vegemite Chelation Therapy? Vegemite infused mice? There must be a solution! :)

I'm wading through a paper now (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3582312/) and in the text it pretty much states the issue that until the Vit D involvement is looked in research methods that cover the spectrum of Vit D involvement in MS then there are no answers by cross referencing from other perspectives.
Because of the complex nature of the systems a deficiency of any number of other supporting minerals, vitamins, amino acids and other interactions will make an understanding of Vit D in any research hugely difficult.
The anecdotal reports have to be considered in as critical a fashion to cover the complex interactions of the total factors involved in the Matrix/Synergy.
So I guess that leaves us with suck it and see approach, if it kills you then we'll never know for sure!
The Cats may be there in your Life to show the complexity of Definitive Answers, as if the Humans in your Life aren't complex enough, you are using the next outer layer of your environment ;)

;)
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby NZer1 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:19 pm

Here we are seeking definite answers for an undefined problem!

Lets look for a needle in a haystack, oh hang on what is a needle and what does it look like?

Can you tell me the taste of strawberry so I will know it when I have one!

Just like what is happening with the BNAC study outcome/presumptions, if you don't know what you are looking for how will you find it?

:) :(
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby MarkW » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:15 am

Hello Newbies and Thread Readers,
You are forgiven if you that feel Vitamin D3 is a very complex subject. It probably is a very complex subject but that does not mean that pwMS cannot take the FIRST STEP:
FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood
If you read the basic research you will understand that pwMS benefit from this first step. By taking 5000iu/day most pwMS will acheive 125nmol/L. Taking 5000iu/day of D3 in an oil formulation is not a mega dose. I posted a paper abstract saying: "intakes between 234 and 275 µg/day were not associated with hypercalcaemia, and a no observed adverse effect level (NOAEL) of 250 µg/day was established." 250 µg is 10,000 IU so 5000iu/day is half the NOAEL level. The human body usually adsorbs the essential minerals from our diets, even a poorly balanced diet. This means extensive testing of other minerals is not required for most pwMS. If you are in a small group of pwMS who do not increase Vit D3 blood levels after taking 5,000 iu/day then more testing is required and advice from a specialist is needed. My goal with this thread is to answer basic questions on Vitamin D3 in pwMS. I do not claim to understand Vit D in the human population.
I have said many times before its an economic question, your choice:
Spend less than 10 US cents/day on a capsule which probably helps pwMS or do/wait 3-5 years for research on vit D3 in pwMS.
Of course sunshine and and a healthy diet, along with a vein health program and CCSVI are good options for pwMS but vit D3 is a very cheap first step.
So please do not get confused by the complex information on this thread but do the the FIRST STEP:
FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: FIRST STEP-Vit D3 min for pwMS=125 nmol/L in blood

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:16 am

and here's the rest of the first step:
Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances (2011)
chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic17004.html#p168661
more detail
regimens-f22/topic2489.html#p15460
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