Can venous blood clots dissolve?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Can venous blood clots dissolve?

Postby NotFound » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:30 pm

Seems that it is / should be a body's natural mechanism for getting rid of clots once they performed their function (stopped the bleeding).

I seem to be reading references to either surgical removal or "living with a blocked vein".

Can the following happen:

Liberation procedure --> shear stress to the vein --> clotting cascade --> repair the damage --> dissolve the clot?
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Postby Cece » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:58 am

Yes, it's recanalization if the body dissolves the clot:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-144699.html#144699

It seems to be a roll of the dice if it happens or not? When people get put on blood thinners after coming down with a clot, it is in attempt to prevent further clotting and allow the body to dissolve the clot on its own if it can.
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Postby NotFound » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:38 am

Cece wrote:Yes, it's recanalization if the body dissolves the clot:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-144699.html#144699

It seems to be a roll of the dice if it happens or not? When people get put on blood thinners after coming down with a clot, it is in attempt to prevent further clotting and allow the body to dissolve the clot on its own if it can.


Cece, thank you so much!

You are such an important contributor to the information flow here at TIMS. The post you referred to gave me a little reassurance.

I am worried, because my INR does not budge :( for the upteenth day in a row I am at 1.1. They switched my shots, increased my Coumadin (from 2.5 mg to 5 mg to 7.5mg today).
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Postby Cece » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:16 pm

awshucks :oops:
Much credit goes to drsclafani for answering the questions in the first place.

At least they are bumping up the Coumadin for you, it sounds like you are getting good care. Remind me: do you know if you have a clot? Should INR levels on Coumadin be between 2 - 3? Have you read what Joan has said about hypercoaguability and that Dr. Dake found while treating MS patients last summer that overall they required more Coumadin than a normal patient would to get to the same levels?
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-144241.html#144241
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Postby NotFound » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:39 pm

Cece wrote: Remind me: do you know if you have a clot?
No, I am just worried because it's been a week of low INR after my procedure - plenty of time to get that clot started :(

Why didn't I think of taking aspirin for a few days prior...


Cece wrote: Should INR levels on Coumadin be between 2 - 3?
Yes!

Cece wrote:Have you read what Joan has said about hypercoaguability and that Dr. Dake found while treating MS patients last summer that overall they required more Coumadin than a normal patient would to get to the same levels?
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-144241.html#144241


No, off to read it!

Thanks a bunch!
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Postby vivavie » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:52 pm

Notfound,
After my thrombosis I was put on coumadin for 3 months and Lovenox until I get INR 2-3. I took 11 WEEKS to get therapeutic (>2). They kept increasing the coumadin but the highest I got was 2.09! I weight 115lbs and don't eat meat (harder to increase INR)

After last week procedure they did not bother with the coumadin, I am on Lovenox injection twice a day.

As long as you keep your injections you are safe even if your INR is low.

I am wondering if this is another charming caractheristic of ms, the difficulty to dilute the blood????
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Postby vivavie » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:55 pm

Sorry, I am on Lovenox and Plavix but no aspirin.
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Postby NotFound » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:34 pm

vivavie wrote:After my thrombosis I was put on coumadin for 3 months and Lovenox until I get INR 2-3. I took 11 WEEKS to get therapeutic (>2). They kept increasing the coumadin but the highest I got was 2.09! I weight 115lbs and don't eat meat (harder to increase INR)


Wow!

Let's see how long my up curve will take.

I am heavier than you are, and did you say meat? I eat meat, but lately did not feel like having any.

vivavie wrote:
As long as you keep your injections you are safe even if your INR is low.



Really? <insert hopeful voice> I am on Lovenox twice a day, switched from Heparin by my "Anticoagulation specialist"

I don't even know why I put her title in parenthesis, because it all happens the Anticoagulation Clinic. I just did not know that such thing even existed...
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Postby Merlyn » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:09 pm

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Postby Merlyn » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:13 pm

Lumbrokinase is a new product which shows promise in dissolving clots without the risk of hemorrhage. Clinical studies have shown that stroke patients on Lumbrokinase within one month following a stroke showed almost complete recovery. Boluoke, the trade name for Lumbrokinase, is safe, effective and available OTC.

Lumbrokinase also referred to as: earthworm powder, fibrinolytic enzymes, earthworm powder enzymes (EPE), e-PPA, Boluoke. The earthworm whose scientific name is Lumbricus rubellus has been used for centuries in the Far East as a traditional medicine. The earthworm's ability to break down fibrin was reported by Fredericq and Krukenberg in the 1920's. Since then, some Japanese scholar like Mihara Hisashi succeeded in extracting fibrin dissolving enzyme from Lumbricus rubellus, and also found that this enzyme consists of six proteolytic enzymes, which are collectively named Lumbrokinase. Lumbrokinase also overcame the adverse effects of bleeding by having a uniquely high affinity for fibrin.

This preparation may have a significant effect in the prevention and treatment of ischemic cerebrovascular disease. Boluoke can be applied widely in the treatment of myocardiac infarction, vascular sudden deafness, retinal artery and vein occlusion induced blindness, and pulmonary infarction. It is a good adjunctive treatment for patients who are on or have had EDTA chelation therapy or hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

As Boluoke is easily taken, has few side effects and no hemorrhage risk, it can be used as long-term anticoagulant agent to apply in accessory treatment and complicating disease prevention after some clinical operations, such as catheterization procedures. Since Boluoke has no gastrointestinal reaction, it can be used as a substitute for patients who are unable to tolerate aspirin.

Boluoke is also used in the prevention and treatment of hypercoagulability associated with some chronic diseases, for example: diabetes mellitus, pulmonary heart disease, atrial fibrillation, malignant tumor, systemic lupus erythematosus, polycythemia vera, thrombocythemia, glomerulonephritis, hemolytic anemia, liver disease and preeclampsia. Being an unique oral anticoagulant and thrombolytic drug that possesses urokinase and t-PA activities, Boluoke can be applied in a combined treatment for thrombosis disease with other anticoagulant medicine.

For acute conditions: 2 capsules tid 30 minutes before meals for 3-4 weeks or as advised by your health care professional. For maintenance and prevention: 1 capsule 1-3 times per day 30 minutes before meals.

Since 1990, affiliated Xuanwu Hospital of Capital Medical College, Jiangxi Provincial People's Hospital and No.2 Affiliated Hospital of Jiangxi Medical College have studied the clinical manifestations and the clotting characteristics of 453 patients with ischemic cerebrovascular disease by randomized double-blinded method. The results indicated that the total effective rate is 93% and the significant response rate is 73%.

Organized by Chinese Medical Society, a collaborative group of 16 hospitals has performed a phase III clinical trial of Boluoke capsule in treating ischemic cerebrovascular disease from June 1992 to December 1993. Totally, 1560 patients were studied according to "the censorship and approval regulations of new drugs "to further verify the clinical efficacy and investigate the adverse effects. The total effective rate is 88% and the significant response rate is 68 %. These results all showed that Boluoke capsule is a promising new anti-thrombotic drug with no obvious toxic or adverse effects, worthy of extensive application.

Nattokinase
Recently a new enzyme with potent fibrinolytic activity that rivals pharmaceutical agents has been discovered and shows great potential in providing support for hypercoagulative states. This all natural enzyme, Nattokinase, is derived from fermented soy and the bacteria Bacillus natto. Already, backed by research, Nattokinase shows promise in supporting areas such as cardiovascular disease, stroke, angina, venous stasis, thrombosis, emboli, atherosclerosis, fibromyalgia/chronic Fatigue, claudication, retinal pathology, hemorrhoid, varicose veins, soft tissue rheumatisms, muscle spasm, poor healing, chronic inflammation and pain, peripheral vascular disease, hypertension, tissue oxygen deprivation, infertility, and other gynecology conditions (e.g. endometriosis, uterine fibroids). Nattokinase is inexpensive and available from Allergy Research Group.

Various products containing nattokinase have different Fibrin Units (FU) of activity per capsule or tablet. The recommended maintenance dose is 1000 F.U. bid and the therapeutic dose is 2000 FU bid.

Serrapeptase

Serrapeptase, also known as Serratia peptidase, is a proteolytic enzyme isolated from the non-pathogenic enterobacteria Serratia E15. When consumed in unprotected tablets or capsules, the enzyme is destroyed by acid in the stomach. However, enterically-coated tablets enable the enzyme to pass through the stomach unchanged, and be absorbed in the intestine.

Clinical studies show that serrapeptase induces fibrinolytic, anti-inflammatory and anti-edemic (prevents swelling and fluid retention) activity in a number of tissues, and that its anti-inflammatory effects are superior to other proteolytic enzymes.
Besides reducing inflammation, one of serrapeptase's most profound benefits is reduction of pain, due to its ability to block the release of pain-inducing amines from inflamed tissues. Physicians throughout Europe and Asia have recognized the anti-inflammatory and pain-blocking benefits of this naturally occurring substance and are using it in treatment as an alternative to salicylates, ibuprofen and other NSAIDs.

The total dose of serrapeptase per day is between 10 and 30mg on an empty stomach, preferably in three divided doses. The cost should not be prohibitive, as might be expected from looking at some of the newer products on the market.
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Postby NotFound » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:55 pm

Whoa Merlyn, thank you!

Let me read up if it can be taking in conjunction with pharmaceutical blood thinners (like Coumadin for example)
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Re: Can venous blood clots dissolve?

Postby Cece » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:17 am

*bumping an old post*

http://www.sirweb.org/news/newsPDF/Rele ... _final.pdf

This was released today, and while it's dealing with clotting in the legs, I thought it was relevant to the topic of clotting in general.

“Although great strides have been made in the treatment of acute clots, there have been no real improvements in treatment strategies for chronic clot and post-thrombotic syndrome. Medical management with blood thinners and elastic compression stockings are both aimed at the prevention of symptom progression rather than resolution,” added Garcia, who is also chair of SIR’s Venous Service Line.

Garcia says his team found encouraging technical and clinical outcomes when people were aggressively treated for chronic DVT causing post-thrombotic syndrome. “Contrary to popular belief, anticoagulants do not actively dissolve the clot; they just prevent new clots from forming. If people are treated with blood thinners alone, the clot remains in the leg. While the body can dissolve a clot over time, the vein often becomes permanently damaged during that time,” noted Garcia.
“The ATTRACT trial could fundamentally shift the 50-year-old DVT treatment paradigm to one that includes interventional clot removal as an essential element of standard DVT care,” said Vedantham.

After treatment for CCSVI, some people have developed clots and been put on anticoagulants by their doctor. As stated in this article, those anticoagulants don't do anything except keep the clot from getting bigger. They do not make the clot go away. People have been managed in this way even when their clots are found within a week of the procedure. It seems that interventional clot removal is a superior choice to medical management. Our neck veins are too important not to do as much as can be done. Interventional clot removal means another endovascular procedure to remove the clot.
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