New thread for L

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby eric593 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:26 pm

Thank you, L!

I apologize for intruding into your thread!
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Postby Lyon » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:34 pm

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Last edited by Lyon on Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby L » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:09 pm

eric593 wrote:Thank you, L!

I apologize for intruding into your thread!


Hey, no problem.

On another note, my girlfriend just pointed out that my avatar, the still from the powerful film 'A Condemned Man Escaped' looks like two men lying in bed. In fact she suggested, and of course this in itself is no bad thing, that it looks a little gay.

So I shall take the opportunity in this, my thread, to announce the changing of my avatar.

But watch the film, it's super! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxc2q1QFZrg
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Postby L » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:14 pm

There we are, a nice cheerful strawberry LSD tab from the 80s. Again, unproven with clinical trials but very effective.
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Re: New thread for L

Postby Lyon » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:25 pm

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Re: New thread for L

Postby L » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:30 pm

Lyon wrote:
L wrote:We are discussing a theory that we believe in and trying our best to understand it, what we are doing develops our understanding to some degree. Wheras you, and Lyon, and others do nothing to help. It is just depressing to hear the same droning objections, over and over, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Why do it? Why not wait until you have something new to say?
Understanding of what, a theory without the least bit of non-anecdotal evidence to support it which lots of people like to speak of as if it's the gospel?

As is often mentioned, it seems necessary to constantly repeat that the constant corrections by the skeptics isn't for the benefit of the "squeaky wheels" here at thisisms but instead is for the benefit of the naive who have wrongly heard that this is the place to come for "accurate" information about the theory of CCSVI and might otherwise believe the fairy dust spread around here shares some similarity with the truth.


If any casual observers are reading this thread then just ignore Lyon, following his lead will get you nowhere!
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Re: New thread for L

Postby L » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:33 pm

Lyon wrote: Understanding of what, a theory without the least bit of non-anecdotal evidence to support it which lots of people like to speak of as if it's the gospel?


That's misleading for the casual observer - there have been a few conformational, published papers.

Casual observer, pay no attention to Lyon. His path is the path of failure! The road to ruin!
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Re: New thread for L

Postby NotFound » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:35 pm

L wrote: Why do you repeat yourself over and over? Why not post in the Stem Cells forum and watch as no one disagrees? Why post, what purpose does it serve to repeat your opinion over and over that the CCSVI theory may have no basis?


I was wondering the same thing, Lyon.

You said that you yourself do not have MS.

Do you have somebody that you care for who has MS? Are you a researcher of MS particulars? Or do you just like to argue?
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Postby scorpion » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:46 pm

We just see things different and probably will continue to do so. I think there are probably as many people who have not had improvements after the liberation procedure as those that claim to feel better but they just do not post. The ones that do post are told they have restenosed, have a blockage somewhere else, etc. so what it the point of posting their information? I believe this "pick and choose" approach has led to a skewed picture of the liberation procedure and of people's true experiences. In the end these "improvements" come down to possibly four reasons. 1. Placebo(and if I hear one more person claim of "not me" I will scream)2. It was the natural course of their disease. 3. They could do some of the tasks before the procedure they just never really tried. 4. The procedure works. In my opinion all of these options need to be considered and until number four is proven or the other three are disproved I will continue to be a "skeptic" of the procedure. Zamboni's original results did not make sense to me, the fact that reliably identifying CCSVI is a mystery makes no sense to me, and the fact the majority of the medical community has not bought into CCSVI makes no sense to me. You can say the skeptics bring everyone down but what really brings me down are people spending $50,000 for this procedure, people getting operated on five times to "clear their blockages, and people who report being in pain months after their surgeries. This makes me frustrated and angry. Sorry.
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Re: New thread for L

Postby Lyon » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:52 pm

..
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Postby L » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:53 pm

scorpion wrote:We just see things different and probably will continue to do so. I think there are probably as many people who have not had improvements after the liberation procedure as those that claim to feel better but they just do not post. The ones that do post are told they have restenosed, have a blockage somewhere else, etc. so what it the point of posting their information? I believe this "pick and choose" approach has led to a skewed picture of the liberation procedure and of people's true experiences. In the end these "improvements" come down to possibly four reasons. 1. Placebo(and if I hear one more person claim of "not me" I will scream)2. It was the natural course of their disease. 3. They could do some of the tasks before the procedure they just never really tried. 4. The procedure works. In my opinion all of these options need to be considered and until number four is proven or the other three are disproved I will continue to be a "skeptic" of the procedure. Zamboni's original results did not make sense to me, the fact that reliably identifying CCSVI is a mystery makes no sense to me, and the fact the majority of the medical community has not bought into CCSVI makes no sense to me. You can say the skeptics bring everyone down but what really brings me down are people spending $50,000 for this procedure, people getting operated on five times to "clear their blockages, and people who report being in pain months after their surgeries. This makes me frustrated and angry. Sorry.


Lots of people post who have had no improvements.. There is a sticky thread that is hugely popular. Noone pretends that improvements are guaranteed.

As for the scepticism, we know! We heard it before! Over and over and over again!
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Postby scorpion » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:04 pm

L wrote:
scorpion wrote:We just see things different and probably will continue to do so. I think there are probably as many people who have not had improvements after the liberation procedure as those that claim to feel better but they just do not post. The ones that do post are told they have restenosed, have a blockage somewhere else, etc. so what it the point of posting their information? I believe this "pick and choose" approach has led to a skewed picture of the liberation procedure and of people's true experiences. In the end these "improvements" come down to possibly four reasons. 1. Placebo(and if I hear one more person claim of "not me" I will scream)2. It was the natural course of their disease. 3. They could do some of the tasks before the procedure they just never really tried. 4. The procedure works. In my opinion all of these options need to be considered and until number four is proven or the other three are disproved I will continue to be a "skeptic" of the procedure. Zamboni's original results did not make sense to me, the fact that reliably identifying CCSVI is a mystery makes no sense to me, and the fact the majority of the medical community has not bought into CCSVI makes no sense to me. You can say the skeptics bring everyone down but what really brings me down are people spending $50,000 for this procedure, people getting operated on five times to "clear their blockages, and people who report being in pain months after their surgeries. This makes me frustrated and angry. Sorry.


Lots of people post who have had no improvements.. There is a sticky thread that is hugely popular. Noone pretends that improvements are guaranteed.

As for the scepticism, we know! We heard it before! Over and over and over again!


Darn it L, it was much easier to get upset with you when you had the previous icon!
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Postby CCSVIhusband » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:10 pm

scorpion wrote:We just see things different and probably will continue to do so. I think there are probably as many people who have not had improvements after the liberation procedure as those that claim to feel better but they just do not post. The ones that do post are told they have restenosed, have a blockage somewhere else, etc. so what it the point of posting their information? I believe this "pick and choose" approach has led to a skewed picture of the liberation procedure and of people's true experiences. In the end these "improvements" come down to possibly four reasons. 1. Placebo(and if I hear one more person claim of "not me" I will scream)2. It was the natural course of their disease. 3. They could do some of the tasks before the procedure they just never really tried. 4. The procedure works. In my opinion all of these options need to be considered and until number four is proven or the other three are disproved I will continue to be a "skeptic" of the procedure. Zamboni's original results did not make sense to me, the fact that reliably identifying CCSVI is a mystery makes no sense to me, and the fact the majority of the medical community has not bought into CCSVI makes no sense to me. You can say the skeptics bring everyone down but what really brings me down are people spending $50,000 for this procedure, people getting operated on five times to "clear their blockages, and people who report being in pain months after their surgeries. This makes me frustrated and angry. Sorry.


The majority of the "medical community" knows very little if anything about MS. So why would they buy in? Are they Interventional Radiologists or vascular specialists who can do anything about it? It seems A LOT of IRs and VS are buying in! It's the "neurologists" who aren't ... and they have a reason not to ... (this has all been documented in a hundred other arguments you skeptics have made, as if your opinion is the only opinion that people should listen to because you're just looking out for those who can't look out for themselves and reason both sides of an argument).

In fact "neurologists" know very little - IF ANYTHING - about MS.
They sure know how to take money though ... http://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

My wife has two uncle's who are doctors ... they've bought in and are spreading this with their colleagues ... :lol: ... more to come ...

Even WHEN CCSVI proves out, most doctors will not be aware of it (a condition that affects 1 in near 1,000 people at most in a country with one of the highest global rates - and much less than those numbers world-wide). It's not their day to day focus, it isn't something they sit at home and read articles about every day.

What is a GP going to do? What is an orthopod going to do? It'll still be IRs, VS, and "neurologists" ... and - NEW - doctors going through med school that will be the ones who "know".

Maybe you should email Dr. Isadore Rosenfeld on FoxNews Sundays and see what his take is? :) ... he's a cardio guy ... (oh wait, he's at Cornell who is already biased, because they're interested in taking part in the Hubbard study). - hmmmmmm, Dr. Hubbard is a neurologist (well neurologist researcher) ... interesting he buys into it.

Edited to change the location of the doctor in question ... right city, wrong school.
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Postby pairOdime » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:33 pm

Great news CCSVIhusband concerning Dr. Rosenfeld's (and the other docs mentioned) interest in CCSVI and this very promising area of treatment.

Isadore Rosenfeld, M.D., a professor of medicine at New York Hospital Weil Cornell Medical Center, is widely recognized as one of this country's preeminent doctors. His regular appearances on network television have garnered a devoted nationwide following of viewers seeking the latest information on health and medical issues.

With nine best-selling books to his credit (as well as a textbook for doctors), Dr. Rosenfeld is one of the leading and most effective proponents of the medical enlightenment of the American public. He is a contributing editor of Parade Magazine, with 82 million readers.

Dr. Rosenfeld is an attending physician at New York Hospital and Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center and Rossi Distinguished Professor of Clinical Medicine at New York Hospital Weil Cornell Medical Center.
He was president of the New York County Medical Society and was a member of The Practicing Physicians Advisory Council for the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

In addition to maintaining a private practice in Manhattan, Dr. Rosenfeld has served as a consultant to the National Institute of Health on such task forces as arteriosclerosis, sudden death and hypertension.
He is the recipient of the first award for the achievement in cardiovascular medicine and science by the New York affiliate of the American Heart Association.

Dr. Rosenfeld received the United Nation's Citizen of the World Award in November 1999 and the San Valentino D'Oro Gold Medal for Medicine.
It's a paradigm shift
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Postby Rokkit » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:38 pm

scorpion wrote:Darn it L, it was much easier to get upset with you when you had the previous icon!
Bwahaha, that's funny. :D

Ok, my 2 cents: if ever there was a fart in a windstorm, it's this thread.
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