hypoxia-related neurological deficits in sleep apnea

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby cheerleader » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:09 pm

bluesky63 wrote:Not thinking on all cylinders right now, but I have wondered if we might get any interest from sleep clinics, etc., from looking at this whole thing as a sleep disorder. I am obviously not the first to talk about this, but a near-universal effect of the procedure seems to be a return of dreaming. A before-and-after sleep study would be enlightening.


Agreed, bluesky. I believe jugular stenosis, slowed perfusion and hypoxia is creating central sleep apnea in those with CCSVI, just as it does in those who travel to high altitude or have Cheyne Stokes respiration. Will ask Dr. Haacke what he thinks, since he was so helpful in taking on O2 and perfusion into his study. I think this is why sleep apnea went away completely immediately in Jeff and others after angioplasty.

Here are signs of central sleep apnea:
Observed episodes of stopped breathing or abnormal breathing patterns during sleep
Abrupt awakenings accompanied by shortness of breath
Shortness of breath that's relieved by sitting up
Difficulty staying asleep (insomnia)
Excessive daytime sleepiness (hypersomnia)
Difficulty concentrating
Snoring

Cheyne-Stokes respiration. This type of central sleep apnea is most commonly associated with congestive heart failure or stroke, and it is characterized by a rhythmic, gradual increase and then decrease in breathing effort and airflow. During the weakest breathing effort, a total lack of airflow (central apneas) can occur.


How long does the dreaming last? If you lose other benefits, will the dreaming stay? Where is this captured?


Dr. Salvi noted this at the Bologna conference in his presentation....his patients reported dreaming again. I sat up and gasped when he said this, because Jeff had been treated 6 months earlier, and he'd said the same thing! I leaned over to Dr. Dake and said, "That happened to Jeff too!!" And he still has this, almost 2 years since angio. He loves sharing his vivid dreams with me again. And now we've learned it's happened to many others who receive angioplasty. I've written about it on here in regards to REM sleep and the need for O2 to acheive REM sleep...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-13995-rem.html+sleep

more to learn!
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby 1eye » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:41 pm

I am with you all the way. Yes, dreaming. How is it related to apneas and to O2 levels? If blood in the brain is low in oxygen, does this affect REM sleep? Tight control of gas composition might elucidate, rather than waiting for control loops and making assumptions.

Normal subjects would be better here. End-point might be reproduction of the common MS condition of not having dreams. Remedying that with more oxygen might be a goal.
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
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Postby Cece » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:42 pm

With obstructive sleep apnea linked to bigger neck circumferences, could that extra weight be pressing not just on the airways but also on the jugulars?

Bluesky, that would be a very interesting study to get before/after-venoplasty sleep studies. They can measure how much time patients spend in REM sleep and deep sleep and of course apneic epsiodes. It is a commonly reported change post-venoplasty as you say and it's when we use our jugulars, at night, when we sleep.

Cheer, very interesting. There are the glucose needs of REM sleep too, with glucose also being reduced in slow cerebral blood flow. So many pieces of the puzzle.
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Re: hypoxia-related neurological deficits in sleep apnea

Postby zap » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:40 am

wanted to bump this thread - I've been having episodes of night sweats which seem to be potentially related to sleep apnea, and both of those are associated with MS ... any more info on people's experience with apnea and night sweats post CCSVI op? It's an interesting intersection for study I think.
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Re: hypoxia-related neurological deficits in sleep apnea

Postby Bethr » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:33 pm

Throwing this to the top! Very interesting thread.
I reckon sleep apnea was one of my major contributors to the brain lesion I developed and the awful fatigue, and lack of healing in general, and my misdiagnosis of MS. Lack of oxygen can cause the body the make more haemoglobin, absorb more iron for purposes of making more Hgb and try to get more oxygen into the body.
My cause was a large 2inch cyst in the throat area. Still well since op. and energy still back and no more mountain sickness :lol: All good really, but interested to know what the hell happened to me!

My sister has had an op on her nasal passage deviation/blockage and is feeling heaps more energy and sleeping a lot better too. No relapses for a long while, just the deficits she has collected along the way that never really go away. I definitely see an improvement in her.

We both seem to have had long term difficulty in getting oxygen into our bodies (and I would suppose to our brains) without really being aware of it.
There must be some clue in there.
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Re: hypoxia-related neurological deficits in sleep apnea

Postby cheerleader » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:49 pm

Thanks for bumping this thread, Bethr. Also glad you're doing better!! Hope the good oxygenation continues. In the past year, we've learned even more why REM sleep is important to brain health--

University of Rochester research into the "glymphatic system" and clearance of metabolic waste, research from the University of Wisconsin on how REM sleep aids OPC cells, and is essential for remyelination, and a Mayo clinic study linking lack of REM sleep to Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and dementia.
http://www.naturalnews.com/038930_sleep ... imers.html

Healthy brains need undisturbed, deep REM sleep.
It's not just about O2...it's also about how the brain cleans and repairs itself during deep sleep.
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com/2013/10/s ... brain.html

Jeff continues to do well. No more apnea, no MS relapses, no new lesions, and a reversal of gray matter atrophy. He sleeps deeply and dreams again.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: hypoxia-related neurological deficits in sleep apnea

Postby 1eye » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:31 am

I've been having an adventure with CPAP. I was tested long ago, and had a machine for about a year. Lately though I was wanting to try it again. I went to a guy who said since I weighed so much less and the technology had developed so much, he would try me on this machine that breathes in both directions, I think getting more or less out of the way when you are trying to exhale. Seemed like a good idea. unfortunately the only mask i could use was a nasal cannula, directly into nasal passages. i had to fight with my mouth opening while I was asleep. At the same time, I don't think it had very good air filtering. When we placed it on a bedside table, there was a lot of dust lying just around it. This dust went through the filter, up my nose and straight to my lungs. I did not react well. I got very congested. I started to find thing like fleas and ticks in my nose. I discovered some form of nematodes were occupying my nose. I started seeing weird clouds or swarms of critters in my field of vision, especially at night. I think I might have some kind of infestation in my eyes. That's driving me bananas.

Yesterday I went back to the cpap doctor and he said likely I have a central apnea caused by my "MS", and scheduled me for another sleep study. He said most people have some number of apneas during the night, but central apnea could be more destructive. So I am to go to this sleep study, and he predicts it will show a central (I suspect that means CNS-caused) apnea, and that I will go onto a machine that actively assists both inhaling and exhaling. (An iron lung?) Anyway I hope it has a really good filter, as I think any machine that blows air into your lungs better have one. jMHO.
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience
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