A logical ending?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby 1eye » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:06 pm

If the drainage side of the brain is at risk due to low oxygen and low glucose aren't the drainage veins like the jugulars at risk too? Could be one of those self-fulfilling vicious snakes, to mix a few metaphoric drinks. The right heart gets its own blood supply, and I would guess the venous part of the lungs. Maybe our inventors forgot to feed the veins too? Just an idle thought. I'm getting hungry. :wink:
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Postby Leonard » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:30 am

You have a point.

Our inventors did not make us for walking upright either; we walk upright only for the last million years or so. The haemodynamics of the head has changed because of that... (and our eating patterns and environmental conditions as well I should add)
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Postby Leonard » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:26 am

Is the future of health care being reshaped before our very eyes?

http://www.doctors20.com/
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Postby Jasper9 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:24 am

This is a really interesting thread.

I am wondering what is the limiting factor.
- is the amount of glucose to go through the BBB limited by iron deposits to the extent that injesting additional glucose into the blood stream has no benefit?

In fact, is it logical to assume that if glucose is not absorbed correctly through the vascular system then the blood in veins may actually carry a higher sugar content than normal.

And what would be the affect of this on the endothelium? Cheerleader's endothial health report on CCSVI Alliance website says;

"Ingesting too much glucose in the form of simple sugars increases endothelial cell death and increases oxidative stress."

Is is another vicious circle?

(I'm actually hoping someone will tell me that the more glucose I have the better so I can go and eat cake! - but I don't think it will be as straightforward as that?) :wink:
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Postby Leonard » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:40 am

Jasper9 wrote:This is a really interesting thread.

I am wondering what is the limiting factor.
- is the amount of glucose to go through the BBB limited by iron deposits to the extent that injesting additional glucose into the blood stream has no benefit?

In fact, is it logical to assume that if glucose is not absorbed correctly through the vascular system then the blood in veins may actually carry a higher sugar content than normal.

And what would be the affect of this on the endothelium? Cheerleader's endothial health report on CCSVI Alliance website says;

"Ingesting too much glucose in the form of simple sugars increases endothelial cell death and increases oxidative stress."

Is is another vicious circle?

(I'm actually hoping someone will tell me that the more glucose I have the better so I can go and eat cake! - but I don't think it will be as straightforward as that?) :wink:


you are perfectly right; and it may point to a further and stronger link to diabetes II and the glucose condition.
my farther had weakening in the legs when he was 58 years old; but never had MS.
he wad diagnosed with diabetes II around more or less the same time, started his Metformin medication and of course low sugar consumption to get his blood sugar under control.
we are now 25 years later; he is 83 years old and in good health; his weakening disappeared, at least I never heard about it anymore. his diabetes is perfectly under control with a few pills.
I had my blood sugar tested and also the fast serum insulin response to stress. things were normal or a sort of. so I do not have diabetes, at least not yet. but there is a genetic predisposition.
I think the real and underlying mechanism is the hardening/calcification of the veins. That process is underway and it is known that it starts 10 years or so before it comes to a point that the insulin can not do its work anymore. For me that will be earlier, because I had all these stenoses in the neck that limited the drainage of the cerebro-spinal and the related glucose transport and hence the glucose condition is already worse than for "normal" diabetes II patients... So for me, things will simply happen earlier...
thanks a lot for the thought, I do believe it is yet another important piece of the puzzle and strengthens the link with diabetes II/hardening of the veins.
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Postby Leonard » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:53 am

This PhD study from 2009 seems to support the ccsvi / low-glucose hypothesis of this thread:

This PhD project explores the hypothesis that the deficits arise because the nerve fibres passing through inflammatory lesions are relatively starved of oxygen and glucose. The hypothesis is strongly supported by historical evidence, currently largely forgotten, that drugs that open blood vessels (e.g. amyl nitrite) can restore function in MS within an hour.

http://www.mssociety.org.uk/research/re ... t_824.html
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Postby Cece » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:13 am

www.neurology.org/content/45/12/2261.abstract
Effects of unbalanced diets on cerebral glucose metabolism in the adult rat
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content...act/45/12/2261

Quote:
From the Departments of Neurology (Drs. Al-Mudallal and Harik) and Neurological Surgery (Dr. Lust), Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, Cleveland, OH; and the Neurology Service (Dr. Levin), VA Medical Center, and Department of Neurosciences, New Jersey School of Medicine and Dentistry, Newark, NJ.
Supported in part by USPHS grants HL 35617 and AM 30066 and by the Research Service of the Department of Veterans Administration.
Received December 6, 1994. Accepted in final form March 28, 1995.
Address correspondence and reprint requests to Dr. Sami I. Harik, Department of Neurology, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, 4301 West Markham Street, Slot 500, Little Rock, AR 72205.

We measured regional cerebral metabolic rates for glucose and selected cerebral metabolites in rats fed one of the following diets for 6 to 7 weeks1) regular laboratory chow; (2) high-fat, carbohydrate-free ketogenic diet deriving 10% of its caloric value from proteins and 90% from fat; and (3) high-carbohydrate diet deriving 10% of its caloric value from proteins, 78% from carbohydrates, and 12% from fat. In preliminary experiments, we found that moderate ketosis could not be achieved by diets deriving less than about 90% of their caloric value from fat. Rats maintained on the ketogenic diet had moderately elevated blood beta-hydroxybutyrate (0.4 mM) and acetoacetate (0.2 mM), and a five- to 10-fold increase in their cerebral beta-hydroxybutyrate level. Cerebral levels of glucose, glycogen, lactate, and citrate were similar in all groups. 2-Deoxyglucose studies showed that the ketogenic diet did not significantly alter regional brain glucose utilization. However, rats maintained on the high-carbohydrate diet had a marked decrease in their brain glucose utilization and increased cerebral concentrations of glucose 6-phosphate. These findings indicate that long-term moderate ketonemia does not significantly alter brain glucose phosphorylation. However, even marginal protein dietary deficiency, when coupled with a carbohydrate-rich diet, depresses cerebral glucose utilization to a degree often seen in metabolic encephalopathies. Our results support the clinical contention that protein dietary deficiency coupled with increased carbohydrate intake can lead to CNS dysfunction.

eat your protein....
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Postby Cece » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:14 am

I pulled that article from this thread, on a social anxiety forum, lots of interesting research posted there.
www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f30/ ... ndex3.html

omega 3s contribute to the production of ketone bodies which are an alternate source of energy for the brain when glucose is limited, as it may be in CCSVI.
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Postby 1eye » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:11 pm

I have seen two stories here, which as far as I am concerned, are entirely incompatible.

1. The blood in the brain is going too slow, and all the glucose and oxygen gets used up too soon.

2. The brain is unable to absorb glucose because it is plugged up.

I am not diabetic. Are many CCSVI sufferers also diabetic? Have they got high blood sugar?
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Postby Cece » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:22 pm

The first one, 1eye, is the one that I espouse. Maybe we need a separate thread talking just about glucose.

I do think any medical condition or activity (including strenuous exercise) that lowered the amount of glucose in the bloodstream could be detrimental to a brain on the edge, with untreated CCSVI. I am not sure exactly how diabetes would affect this.
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Postby Leonard » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:15 am

In January I started this thread as follows: The road toward further proliferation of [immuno suppressive] drugs [and a explosion of drugs for suppressing night spasms, night headaches, and all sort of other nasty symptoms] for treatment has no logical ending... we may castigate the notion of this sort of treatment with a variety of pointed adjectives, among them "dangerous", "expensive", "prone to obsolescence," and "lacking credibility.

I copied the notion and words from Henry Kissinger in his masterful book Diplomacy. Of course, when Henry Kissinger wrote this down, he did not refer to MS or the health care system but to the situation that was emerging due to the nuclear build-up of the super powers.

Against the background of my last postings on http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-15188-210.html on what is MS [I encourage every one to read], I feel a need to quote again from this book of Henry Kissinger. Quote The Greek philosopher and mathematician Archimedes said: "Give me a place to stand and I will move the world." Revolutions consume their children because revolutionaries rarely understand that, after a certain point of social disintegration, there are no longer any fixed Archimedean points from which to exert leverage. Gorbachev started with the conviction that a reformed Communist Party could propel Soviet society into the modern world. But he could not bring himself to accept that communism was the problem, not the solution. For two generations, the Communist Party had suppressed independent thought and destroyed individual initiative. Unquote

Recognise this? The neurology developing in the 1950's. With as a main concept: auto-immune neurological diseases; immuno suppression… Developing over time into an almost dogmatic believe where any alternative views were not tolerated, where independent thoughts e.g. from the Austrian Dr Steiner about the vascular connection were forcefully suppressed…. Where perhaps the neurology itself is the problem, not the solution. Where a reformed neurology won't help us to bring about the changes needed. Where the health care system has lost a fixed point from which to exert leverage to reform the system in an expeditious manner... and therefore -I would add- we may need a bit of help from the outside (government, politics, insurance companies?)

If it really shows to be true that MS is a problem of vascular origin (narrowings from birth and weakened tissue of veins) combined with a gut bacteria that causes the immune system response, which I personally do not doubt for a moment, the proceedings in the medical world over the last 50 years for "neurology treatment" point to a huge systemic failure...
Last edited by Leonard on Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Cece » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:18 am

Huge systemic failure...that sounds about right.

At different times, they came close, and then the vascular lead goes cold.

Although I would also see these last few years as a huge success, in which the doctors and patients got ahold of the lead and no one is letting go until it is fully explored.
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