Dr. Thanaporn's mouse model of CCSVI!!!

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby Jugular » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:00 am

Cece wrote:not Zamboni! :D
Thanaporn is our mouse doctor.
I was referencing a quote from Dr. Zamboni when he was asked about the lack of a mouse model. You probably knew that. Still, to me, this is one mighty mouse because if this pans out it could really turn the tables on the neurologists. That mouse, walking with its little limp, is one of us. I'd like to buy that little mouse a beer. Or whatever it is that mice like
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Postby Cece » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:15 am

Jugular wrote:
Cece wrote:not Zamboni! :D
Thanaporn is our mouse doctor.
I was referencing a quote from Dr. Zamboni when he was asked about the lack of a mouse model. You probably knew that. Still, to me, this is one mighty mouse because if this pans out it could really turn the tables on the neurologists. That mouse, walking with its little limp, is one of us. I'd like to buy that little mouse a beer. Or whatever it is that mice like

Yes, and I thought it was quite witty.
Wittier than my response, alas.
A cheese beer for the mouse!! Along with some cheese cheers.
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Postby Jugular » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:08 am

Cheers to you too!

:D

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Postby Shannon » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:45 pm

ROFLOL...see how they run, or stumble, or fall.

I've known Zamboni was a Nursery Rhyme doctor all along! After all, he's Italian. You can trust those Italians! They're not American, after all, therefore they must be right out of Mother Goose.

The "specialist" that they sent me too acted very much like he believed this when I tried to discuss it. he was like, "Oh, is that thing that came out of Italy...some Dr. ZAMBONI?" He said it like he could have been asking if I was talking about Humpty Dumpty!
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blind mice...wait a second, serious question here...

Postby codefellow » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:18 pm

I was just joking about the whole blind mice thing, then it occurred to me....

One of the first symptoms of MS is sometimes foot drop, as in our mouse. (I wonder if this was or will be objectively verified. Even the researcher says it is barely perceptible).

But frequently another beginning symptom of MS is Optic Neuritis!

Not since Mickey and Mighty has a mouse had such an interested audience!

:)
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Re: blind mice...wait a second, serious question here...

Postby codefellow » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:22 pm

codefellow wrote:
Even the researcher says it is barely perceptible



Sorry, I do NOT know where that came from, cannot cite it. Please forgive inaccurate information here, I got overly excited. :oops:
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Postby pairOdime » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:27 pm

It was noted as......
mild but significant impairment of gait as assessed by neurobehavioral testing
It's a paradigm shift
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Postby codefellow » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:56 pm

pairOdime wrote:It was noted as......
mild but significant impairment of gait as assessed by neurobehavioral testing


But what do those phrases REALLY mean?

1) "mild but significant"
2) "as assessed by neurobehavorial testing"

Cece, cheerleader, anyone? Inquiring minds want to know!

:?
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Postby 1eye » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:21 pm

You know, if you give a blind mouse a white cane, he may ask you for a white walker, and then a... OMG... wheelchair, and who knows where that may lead!

Garb for Patients Without Patience: black johnny-shirts, white canes, white mouse-ears. Sunglasses optional. Blue and red tail-ribbons.
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience
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Postby se1956 » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:59 pm

Usually this should mean, that the statistical data of some gait test show differences that are not explainable just by chance - using mathematical analysis.

At the onset of MS there are only mild impairments too. The gait is not as smooth as normal, may be some stiffness in the legs, some minor balancing issues...

R.
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Postby bigfoot14 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:50 pm

Patientx posted this on another site

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 41/?page=1

this study used rats, and lasted one week, I wonder what the results would be if the study went on for say 3-4 months
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Postby cheerleader » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:31 pm

bigfoot14 wrote:Patientx posted this on another site

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 41/?page=1

this study used rats, and lasted one week, I wonder what the results would be if the study went on for say 3-4 months


Thanks for posting that link, bigfoot. I had not seen that study, since patient didn't link it on TIMS. Wonder why? Interesting clinical conclusion:
Bilateral IJV ligation could create not only venous congestion and other factors such as hypoxia and hypotension, it could produce a "fragile situation in the brain and then enhance brain damage."

We have to wait for the full paper, folks. All I know from my conversations with the Stanford docs is that they've been working on this about a year, followed the mice for a long time (months) and they saw white matter lesions and motor issues develop. March is almost here....hang in there!
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby Billmeik » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:27 am

and they saw white matter lesions and motor issues develop



The lesions! I would love to hear that confirmed. Is this the putnam replication we've been waiting for? A few weeks waiting to read this whole paper will tell. I think Ill postpone my appt at pacific interventionalists until then.
I thought the post about the mouses placebo response was hilarious!
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Postby Cece » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:12 am

I am hesitant to get too excited until we have the paper itself. I remember everyone thinking the BNAC results were going to be at 95% and it set us up for disappointment when it came in at 56% or 65%, around this time last year. If it turns out to be true that the CCSVI mouse model gets white matter lesions, then that is a slam dunk, well done Dr. Thanaporn.

Bill, the presentation may be just a presentation, no paper at all yet.
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Postby PCakes » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:50 am

Cece wrote:If it turns out to be true that the CCSVI mouse model gets white matter lesions, then that is a slam dunk...


..those points were already on the scoreboard.. good move picking up the mice in that last draft..;)
Recall 1935 work on venous obstruction
Tracey Putnam, Boston City Hospital, y , y p , developed an experimental dog model of venous obstruction to study MS. His work supports the recent rediscovery of this concept by Dr Paolo Zamboni of Italy Dr. Italy.
He stated:

"The similarity between such lesions y and many of those seen in cases of multiple sclerosis in man is so striking that the conclusion appears almost inevitable that venular obstruction is the essential immediate antecedent to the formation of typical sclerotic plaques." plaques "
Putnam (1935). Studies in multiple sclerosis: encephalitis and sclerotic plaques produced by venular obstruction. Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry. 33: 929-940.
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