CCSVI and Vitamin C

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:35 am

not to mention, low hepcidin from low iron or zinc!

nice find, b:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20026331
Divalent metal-dependent regulation of hepcidin expression by MTF-1
zinc inducing maximal effects on hepcidin levels


low hepcidin can be due to hypoxia, OR...

Manual of nutritional therapeutics - Google Books Result
David H. Alpers, William F Stenson, Beth Taylor - 2008
Hepcidin synthesis is down-regulated by low iron concentrations, by anemia, and by hypoxia...


the spectrum of ferritin and hepcidin status:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20499129
Hepcidin expression in anemia of chronic disease and concomitant iron-deficiency anemia
Serum hepcidin levels in patient groups were statistically different, from high to low:
Anemia of chronic disease (ACD), Acute Inflammation (AcI) > ACD/Iron Deficiency Anemia (IDA) > the control > IDA.
Serum ferritin levels were significantly increased in ACD and AcI patients but were decreased significantly in ACD/IDA and IDA.
Serum ferritin levels were significantly increased in ACD and AcI patients but were decreased significantly in ACD/IDA and IDA.


so according to that, the folks who are worst off for hepcidin are the folks with iron deficiency anemia.

Personally, my background is 'possibly deficient' ferritin AND deficient zinc, so going by this study I could guess that I also had low hepcidin before addressing those two deficiencies. wonder what it's like now?
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:46 am

ok so to help folks figure out whether iron and vit C are good guys are bad guys in their own case, i went hunting for more info on hepcidin levels in healthy controls.

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/54/9/1584
Quantification of Hepcidin-25 in Human Serum by Isotope Dilution Micro-HPLC–Tandem Mass Spectrometry
Iron deficiency is associated with low hepcidin-25 concentrations and anemia of chronic disease with high concentrations, but the true diagnostic value of hepcidin-25 is still under investigation.

Day-to-day variation of hepcidin-25 values (nmol/L) for serum samples colected in the morning from apparently healthy fasting individuals.
Median, F 0.9 0.7 0.8 0.4
Median, M 2.1 2.2 1.9 1.2

Preliminary data from tumor patients and patients with anemia of chronic disease show hepcidin-25 concentrations up to 70 nmol/L.

...A similar pattern was observed for hepcidin levels, being highest at admission (17.9 (10.1 to 28.4) nmol/l) and declining to 9.5 (3.4 to 17.9) nmol/l on day three, which is still increased compared with control values.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18557745
Serum hepcidin levels were lower in [hemochromatosis] 1.88 (0.78-2.77 nmol/l) compared to controls 2.74 (1.45-5.39).

http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/5/1280/F1.expansion.html
Of the 34 women who were iron deficient (plasma ferritin <15 μg/L), 32 had plasma hepcidin concentrations below the limit of detection of the assay (<0.5 nmol/L)
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:51 am

@dc, here's how you know if you have iron overload:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-125236.html#125236
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Postby Bethr » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:13 pm

Ferritin is not a good measure, as it can be raised or lowered for another reason, and that is a common occurance. My ferritin never got too high at 175 (200 is the cutoff for menstruating women), as I'm a heavy bleeder elsewhere also, but I was still loading. This shows up with transferrin saturation, Hb, HCT etc.
I also find the numbers a bit high in your ranges for ferritin. My Hct can be as high as 48+ and my hemoglobin up to 163, but ferritin down at about 50. I was still loaded with iron at that stage. My ferritin got down to 43 before my Hct and Hb came down to high normal levels.
I'll see if I can find a better set of ranges.
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Postby Bethr » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:33 pm

I'll go into a bit more of the process. Ferritin can be a measure of iron storage in the liver.
If someone has iron overload and is being phlebed to deplete iron from organs, they watch a number of markers. When the ferritin is down to 20-50, then the body can start to draw iron from deeper stores.
From then it is a balancing act to keep the patient from being anemic, but not letting the ferritin get above 50, so the body continues to draw out the iron from tissue.
I'm at about that point now. Women don't tend to get the liver issues from iron that men do. I kindof wonder if our metabolism likes other areas. I obviously copped it in the pituatary as I got the melanosis on my skin. I also think I copped it in the brain for obvious reasons :lol:

Anyway, I hope that kinds of explains the process.
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:50 pm

those are just the ranges provided by my lab. take them as broad brush strokes at best. even so, i have found ferritin a useful measure in my situation (not hemochromatosis). my hb was low (ergo low transport and delivery of oxygen) when my ferritin was low. it all hung together.

it's sort of similar to a little debate i had with the doc at the walk-in last night. he's taking his masters in nutrition and he said serum tests are useless, only intracellular tests tell you what's really going on. i've been over that debate regarding testing for magnesium. i couldn't get a swab test from the lab, it would have had to be the doc. the research that's out there has a lot of info on serum levels, so that is what i ended up having to use.. and the info was useful even though it wasn't the most accurate assay possible.

if my ferritin levels started creeping up toward that 200 mark i would definitely be looking at additional things to find out what was up. but since i've always been on the low side with hb to match, never bothered. it really depends on the individual i think.

i think it's quite likely that some ms patients ought to be taking iron and enhancing their absorption with vit C .... PROVIDED their zinc is optimized.

i still like the klenner protocol which specifies hemoglobin at least 13, and massive amounts of vitamin C. (link in sig below)
Last edited by jimmylegs on Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bethr » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:10 pm

You've got it Jimmylegs. The Hb and HCT are very important measures. And if these are on the normal/low range I would say you have not much chance of a classic iron overload, and are more in a balancing stage, you could utilise Vit.c with high iron foods to increase absorption if low.

If your iron panel is on the high side, and HCT and Hb are on the high side, then maybe watch the Vitamin C supplements, or take it at different times in the day from high iron foods.
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Postby Bethr » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:15 pm

On a note, it has been found that when people with iron overload use kinds of medicines for acid reflux, h2 receptor antagonists they stop loading iron.
If low on iron, this may be something to look at.
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:20 pm

in my case, i was a strict vegetarian for years and years prior to dx.. i went whole food omnivore shortly after i got the bad news. it was weird but easier than i thought. and fun. menus at restaurants suddenly got so exciting! lol

i tried to find a study of hemoglobin levels in ms patients. this is a tough one!
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:24 pm

re antacids, yea cal and mag compete with iron for absorption. whenever i supplement iron it goes in with vit C, period. other things diff times of day for sure, but iron pretty much solo.
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Iron

Postby Tinkerbell » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:25 pm

Please correct me it I am wrong, but we do need iron,

Hemoglobin is a protein that is carried by red cells. It picks up oxygen in the lungs and delivers it to the peripheral tissues to maintain the viability of cells. Hemoglobin is made from two similar proteins that "stick together". Both proteins must be present for the hemoglobin to pick up and release oxygen normally. One of the component proteins is called alpha, the other is beta. Before birth, the beta protein is not expressed. A hemoglobin protein found only during fetal development, called gamma, substitutes up until birth.


We need the correct amount of iron in our body because Iron is used by blood cells to carry oxygen to all cells in the body. It helps our blood to clot as well. I people do not have to right amount of iron in their bodies, when the are cut or scrapped, they will bleed too much and eventually die. It helps to build a strong immune system and release energy from food. Iron also helps regulate our metabolism. To increase iron intake you should eat more lean red meats such as beef and lamb. Cereal and cereal products also contribute iron. As well as green vegetables. Lean meats are the best supplement for iron following by cabbage, parsley, peas, potato and sweet corn.
The following describe some of the more important roles of iron in the body:
· Iron assists the transport of oxygen around the body
· Iron helps fights infection
· Iron is used in energy production
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:11 am

yes t. the problem is iron is being painted evil due to brain deposition. klenner protocol specifies hemoglobin at least 13. can't do that without adequate iron. iron dysregulation remains a concern but IMHO patients should know whether their iron (and zinc) levels are high or low and act accordingly.
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Postby Bethr » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:27 am

Too much iron or too little can cause problems Tinkerbell.
And absorption can be genetically influenced.
Best thing people can do is check with their Drs. and act accordingly.
Iron is not evil, it's essential, I just happen to have a genetic iron loading problem, so will some others. Awareness is power.
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