What ever happened to the Iron theory?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

What ever happened to the Iron theory?

Postby WeWillBeatMS » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:59 am

With more and more people getting liberated now, I am wondering what happened with the theory that the stenosed veins which cause the reflux in turn cause iron to go back up and be deposited in the brain? I was once again reading Joan's notes from the conference that she went to in Italy a few years ago and the doctor's were discussing the iron deposits at that convention. It was my understanding that the iron deposits were believed to be the real underlying problem. If that is true what, if anything, are people doing post liberation to try to reverse the iron damage?

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Postby cheerleader » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:13 am

Angioplasty is removing iron deposition as shown on SWI in many. The Haacke protocol is following patients at 3, 6 and 12 month intervals. Patients are showing less iron after angio. The papers will be written up in the coming months by Dr. Hubbard and Haacke. I only know of this from Devin Hubbard, Dr. Hubbard's son and his first patient, who is being followed by the Haacke protocol, and has better O2 and less FE per fMRI and SWI.
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Postby Rokkit » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:33 am

As for what people are doing, I'm trying to chelate the iron in my brain by drinking matcha (supposedly a more potent form of green tea) and taking an EGCG supplement. Who knows if it is true. (I feel like Martin Luther.)
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Postby WeWillBeatMS » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:38 am

Thanks Cheer. That sounds like good news.

Do we know of any way to try to help speed up the process of getting the iron out? Either natural or more aggressive detox methods?

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Postby Bethr » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:05 pm

I'm using phlebotomy, and have been donating blood every three months since January 2010. I have completely reversed all my symptoms and feel great. My sister has just started a course to see if it works for her.
She has fatigue and pain.

I'm CIS and have a haemochromatosis (iron overloading) gene so have always had high iron levels no matter how much I bleed. My sister has had MS for 20 yrs and has the same high iron levels and gene.

I'm not saying people should do this, but it worked for me, just amazing!
The donor centre mentioned not many women can continue to donate like I can, a super-donor. I don't seem to get anemic from it, and it each time I feel better and better.

I just want more research done as to the connection.
This big conference coming up will be helpful I hope.
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:32 pm

wwbms, you can also read some prior TIMS discussion on dealing with iron if you go to the forum search above, filter results by 'posts' rather than 'topics' and use this for your keyword search string:

zinc AND iron AND dysregulation

hope that helps :)
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Postby WeWillBeatMS » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:57 am

Rokkit - I've been trying to drink more green tea the past few days. It definitely does make me nautious immediately after drinking it.

Bethr - I haven't donated blood in I don't know how many years so I am going to do that soon. Do the donation places have any issue accepting blood from someone diagnosed with MS?

jimmylegs - I found a lot of good info using your search method, thanks.


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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:35 am

yvw :)
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Postby Bethr » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:02 am

Hi WewillbeatMS, I'm not sure what your rules are. You'll need to check.
In my country people with MS DX can't donate.
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Postby Cece » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:58 pm

Here is a recent publication (last month) on iron in MS:
http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/m ... 606807.pdf

That is the full text. CCSVI is mentioned.

Abstract
Increased iron deposition might be implicated in multiple sclerosis (MS). Recent development of MRI enabled to determine
brain iron levels in a quantitative manner, which has put more interest on studying the role of iron in MS. Evidence for abnormal
iron homeostasis in MS comes also from analyses of iron and iron-related proteins in CSF and blood and postmortem MS brain
sections. However, it is not yet clear if iron accumulation is implicated in MS pathology or merely reflects an epiphenomenon.
Further interest has been generated by the idea of chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency that might be associated with brain
iron accumulation due to a reduction in venous outflow, but its existence and etiologic role in MS are currently controversially
debated. In future studies, combined approaches applying quantitative MRI together with CSF and serum analyses of iron and
iron-related proteins in a clinical followup setting might help to elucidate the implication of iron accumulation in MS.
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Postby Cece » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:44 pm

and another one:
Analysis of multiple sclerosis lesions using a fusion of 3.0 T FLAIR and 7.0 T SWI phase: FLAIR SWI

Journal of Magnetic Resonance Imaging
Volume 33, Issue 3, pages 543–549, March 2011

Abstract
Purpose
To improve multiple sclerosis (MS) research by introducing a new type of contrast, namely, the combination of fluid-attenuated inversion recovery (FLAIR) data acquired at 3.0 T and 7.0 T susceptibility-weighted imaging (SWI) phase data. The approach of this new contrast is whole-brain coverage with 3.0 T-FLAIR data for lesion detection—currently limited at 7.0 T due to specific absorption rate (SAR) limits—overlaid with high-resolution, small vessel, and iron-related 7.0 T SWI contrast. Lesion analysis in terms of penetrating veins and local iron depositions were performed.
Materials and Methods
Data from 10 MS patients were acquired at 3.0 T and at 7.0 T. FLAIR data, acquired at 3.0 T, were registered to 7.0 T SWI phase data and SWI image processing was performed using 3.0 T FLAIR data instead of SWI magnitude data.
Results
A total of 299 MS plaques were detected in eight MS patients. Penetrating veins were found in 75 MS plaques, iron depositions in 48 MS plaques, and veins accompanied with iron depositions in 44 MS plaques.
Conclusion
FLAIR-SWI provides radiologically known, hyperintense definition of MS lesions overlaid with high-resolution visualization of iron deposits and venous blood vessels and offers new insights into MS lesions. J. Magn. Reson. Imaging 2011;33:543–549. © 2011 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 22452/full

Penetrating veins, iron depositions, and veins accompanied by iron depositions found in MS plaques, although not in all of them.
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:57 pm

interesting link re zinc/UA/iron
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1146751/
Uric acid-iron ion complexes. A new aspect of the antioxidant functions of uric acid. (1986)
In order to survive in an oxygen environment, aerobic organisms have developed numerous mechanisms to protect against oxygen radicals and singlet oxygen. One such mechanism, which appears to have attained particular significance during primate evolution, is the direct scavenging of oxygen radicals, singlet oxygen, oxo-haem oxidants and hydroperoxyl radicals by uric acid. In the present paper we demonstrate that another important 'antioxidant' property of uric acid is the ability to form stable co-ordination complexes with iron ions.


FYI apr - oct 2009 compilation post linking low zinc with various issues in ms including associated low uric acid and links to iron chelation...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-90335.html#90335

another compilation from apr 2009, linking prior posts on low zinc, chronic venous insufficiency, inflammation etc:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-56463.html#56463
hmm that link does not jump to the right post.. here's the content
hey there hub - nice addition to the file :) i don't think you've duplicated anything
JimmyLegs - This might have already been posted, but it appears that there might be a link between venous insufficiency and low zinc levels. Here's an intruiging excerpt from the following paper: http://www.springerlink.com/content/n207g5g3k2414n7w/
Quote: Chronic venous insufficiency... Depressed levels of zinc have been noted in patients with CVI and venous ulcer

i went through the earlier pages of this thread, to sort of get the zinc info in one place:
on CCSVI page 3..
http://www.rowett.ac.uk/newsletter/Resources/nl10_articles/article4.pdf
...vascular disease is accelerated in marginal zinc deficiency and investigates a mechanistic basis for this influence, possibly involving vascular smooth muscle structural proteins...
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index. ... row=361901
Our data indicate that zinc is vital to vascular endothelial cell integrity, possibly by regulating signaling events to inhibit apoptotic cell death.

couple more from CCSVI page 7..
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/27/5/577
Zinc Deficiency Induces Vascular Pro-Inflammatory Parameters
http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/223/2/175
Zinc Deficiency Exacerbates Loss in Blood-Brain Barrier Integrity Induced by Hyperoxia Measured by Dynamic MRI

and CCSVI page 10...
Williams and colleagues compared the nutritional status of a group of 10 women with multiple sclerosis and pressure ulcers with 10 women free from any chronic wound... serum zinc levels were considerably less than normal ranges, suggesting a more significant deficiency.

CCSVI page 16...
Zinc Deficiency Induces Vascular Pro-Inflammatory Parameters Associated with NF-{kappa}B and PPAR Signaling
In the current study we hypothesized that vascular dysfunction and associated inflammatory events are activated during a zinc deficient state.
Zinc deficiency increased oxidative stress and NF-{kappa}B DNA binding activity... as well as monocyte adhesion in cultured endothelial cells.
... rosiglitazone induced inflammatory genes (e.g., MCP-1) only during zinc deficiency... adequate zinc was required for rosiglitazone to down-regulate pro-inflammatory markers such as iNOS.
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