has anybody ever thought of this?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

has anybody ever thought of this?

Postby Filmmaker » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:37 pm

Has anybody ever thought that MAYBE veins stenoses are a defense reaction for the brain not to be OVERWHEALMED with whatever pathogen thats may cause MS?
Has anybody ever thought that this could be the reason why MSers veins restenose after a short while and, in the progressive phase of the disease, may even get worse form the CCSVI procedure?
What if the vein stenoses were actually the last resort our body has to protect the brain a little longer from being flooded with infected blood?
I am convinced that MS is a blood disorder (like many "auto immune conditions"), causing the red blood cells to burst thus the iron deposits... A similar mechanism is noted with Lupus , just in different tissues...and with Parkinson disease...
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Postby Cece » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:06 am

That is a scary thought.

If we accept that the stenoses are congenital, formed during the embryonic period, then this scenario is not likely. uni0n of phlebology consensus. Also the wide variability of stenoses found in CCSVI.
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Postby Algis » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:45 am

So assuming that; why wouldn't it restrain the arteries :roll: Why to wait until all the (infected?) blood is gone throughout the brain?
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Postby MegansMom » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:28 am

The researchers have searched for the elusive pathogen for 50 years, so its unlikely.

Also the ANA test routinely positive for other autoimmune diseases is negative in MS patients.

Endothelin1 is hundreds of times normal in pwMS/CCSVI- E1 rises with certain triggers- hypoxia, hypoglycemia and changes in sheer stress( all found in CCSVI)
E1 causes vessel hypertrophy and fibrosity.
pwMS have tisse that was Collagen1 and has changed to Collagen3- a fibrous change.

Cerebral low level hypoxia and hypoglycemia can be attributed to lower perfusion and cause tissue damage and death- both demyelinization and axonal. They would also contribute to feeling fatigued , cog fog, cognitively impaired and motor impairment and any other neuro symptom.

Its been proven that the imflammatory phase PRECEEDS the involvement of the Immune system AND the B and T cells are not involved in early disease.

Oh and I left out the iron which can come from RBCs that are fractured during turbulance of refluxed flow. Iron/ferritin/hemosiderin causes inflammation too.

CCSVI can explain most- Immune not so much.

Immune system might be activated as a response to all these other things that occur chronically.
Cat (Catherine Somerville on FB)
MegansMom
My 35 yo daughter is newly dx 8/19/10 (had 12 symptoms)
Dx with Type A CCSVI- 1 IJV & double "candy wrapper" appearance of her Azygos
Venoplasty done Sept 21, 2010
Doing extremely well-
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Postby Cece » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:37 am

Also the ANA test routinely positive for other autoimmune diseases is negative in MS patients.

This is the "no antigen has ever been found for MS"? I'll look up ANA test, I've heard about this but don't yet understand it.

I agree with everything MegansMom listed, but still applaud filmmaker for exploring all possibilities!
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Postby Filmmaker » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:06 am

I would say it does not affect arteries because the brain needs that blood in order to repair tissues apparently, brain inflammation (which means brain swelling because or more blood flowing in) can be a good thing in neuro degenerative diseases, as shown in this article: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/168408.php
inflammation helps the immune system remove plaques !!! How about thatÉ

As arteries send the blood to the brain, they are not affected but as veins take it away, they are....
I do not think this condition is congenital at all, and maybe there is no specific pathogen, i don`t know but if that`s the case, then maybe the real origin of the problem comes from another organ than the brain (it could be the stomach, the gut... whatever, but it seems that many MS patients (and any other neuro degenerative condition) suffer really bad from digestive issues, so it could our digestive system sending some kind of threat to the brain which causes inflammation (and there are many many articles about the brain-gut communication)
iAnother possible theory could also be excessive gas in the blood (and I bet all of us on this site suffer from gas and shortness of breath...) and gas reduces oxygen in the blood, thus the need for more blood in the brain and the stenoses... Check for excessive gas in the blood and its effects on tissues especially the brain... Maybe that is also why activated charcoal seems to help some of us...
I am certainely not a doctor but as a sufferer i certainely spend all my time reading and trying to understand this damn condition!!!
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Postby Jugular » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:33 am

The problem with your theory is that more blood can't get into the brain if it can't get get out. You can demonstrate this theory by choaking yourself. But rather than doing that, simply stick a sock in your car's exhaust and see how well it runs. Actually, don't do that either. You'll just have to take my word for it that impaired outflow will impair inflow.

As to MS patients having more gas than normal, I think I'll just "pass" on that one. :-)
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Postby Cece » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:49 am

Jugular wrote:As to MS patients having more gas than normal, I think I'll just "pass" on that one. :-)

Constipation is an MS symptom, filmmaker is probably right about the intestinal gassiness!

(sorry, no gas joke, but I am sure more are coming if I know TIMS....) :)
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Postby Filmmaker » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:49 am

Jugular, that`s fine, but haven`t noticed that you get injured, you have inflammation? meaning more blood flowing in? I think MS is an injury to the brain....
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Not congenital?

Postby Rosegirl » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:01 pm

Filmmaker, why do you disagree with the doctors who say that CCSVI is a congenital condition? Admittedly, it seems to take a fairly long time before symptoms arise in most patients, but there are lots of things that just develop as people age.

MS runs in some families. I think that further research will also find families like mine where my mother had ALS. For decades, my neuros said there was no connection between MS and ALS. CCSVI as a congenital condition would certainly explain a lot.

Most docs seem to think that some additional "trigger" has to be involved to bring on disability, so maybe that explains the missing link?
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Postby 1eye » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:07 pm

I agree with the statement that once supposed pathogens have passed through the organs of the brain and they are on their way out, it is too late. The fact is, stenoses slow the blood's passage through the brain, and if pathogens are a problem to the brain, keeping them there longer would be counter-productive.

Many people wrongly ascribe intelligence to processes that have evolved. They are random changes, there because they have assisted members of a species in survival to the age they can reproduce, for thousands of generations. Part of the reason CCSVI exists, may be that it is a congenital malformation that usually does not prevent reproduction. It may be more than coincidence that females experience a reprieve during gestation.

Coping mechanisms would have to have involved intelligence if they developed in spite of preventing reproduction. They don't, so there is no reason for them to have developed at all.

If the blood makes a complete circuit, nothing is really protected. I can't imagine how keeping pathogens in the brain, for longer than they would otherwise be there, protects against them.
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Any Evidence ?

Postby MarkW » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:29 pm

In science theories are supported with some evidence. Is there any evidence for this theory ?

MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Postby codefellow » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:43 am

Cece wrote:That is a scary thought.

If we accept that the stenoses are congenital, formed during the embryonic period, then this scenario is not likely. uni0n of phlebology consensus. Also the wide variability of stenoses found in CCSVI.


But why should we accept that stenosis is congenital? What evidence do we have of that, other than specialists from 47 countries deciding that it is?
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Postby Leonard » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:37 am

I had my first symptoms when I was 14 years old; but I did not know anything about MS until.. I was diagnosed with MS at 47 years.

I am convinced that I got MS because of a pre-diabetic condition developing; my father has diabetes2. Clearly the MS could develop in combination with the stenoses.

When I was treated with angioplasty, the doctor explained how the veins grow in the pre-congenital phase. Clearly my stenoses date back from a very long time ago because there was something at 14 years of age and at 29 .. but for the rest I had a perfectly healthy life until let's say around 45 years.

Having said this, liberation from venous insufficiency will tremendously improve blood flow; and therefore sugar content delivered to the brains.
I dream, I mean really dream, after liberation, no question.. I had forgotten completely what that is for 10-20 years..
This demonstrates the improved glucose content.

But I also start to realise that the strongly improved glucose condition, in particular the high glucose or the huge alterrations I am used to and needed to feed my undernourished brain cells, cause a bad effect on the endothelium, an effect that is -at this stage and after liberation- essentially the same for people who develop diabetes. At least, that's what my thought is on this ...

I wish we could get some help from the medical professionals on this, but it seems that is not so easy to organise ...

see also

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-15993.html

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-16049.html

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-15188.html
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Postby Filmmaker » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:25 pm

I think MS and diabetes (or hypoglicemia) together are not unusual... That does not mean we are born with those conditions... I also started having symptoms at 15 years old but it became serious at 29... Interestingly enough, most people are diagnosed at 29, 39 or 49 and most of them state that they were having symptoms around 15 years old (especially women more than men...).
If the stenoses were congenital: could anyone explain why 80% of MS patients are women? Why would it precisely take 29 years to have serious consequences from it... ( I mean brain and veins tissues and cells are renewed every four months, so if those tissues were to be affected, I guess we would have felt the damage way soonner than 30 years later...).
Why would CCSVI be congenital and not diabetes or high cholesterol then? Maybe those specialists simply lack of imagination so they declared we are born with it?
Let's have some more "imagination" (as ENSTEIN SAID SCIENCE STARTS WITH IMAGINATION...) what if the stenoses were due to serotonin not working properly... Remember that serotonin is responsible for vaso constriction/ dilation... wouldn't that make more sense? ...
And let's go even further, MS is clearly a collagen disorder (as seen in the change of collagen in the epithelium... ) could it be that serotonin keeps trying to help produce new collagen in order to repair tissues? Then that would explain why the stenoses and why MS patients have low levels of serotonin... it's just being consumed faster than it is produced...
I agree that this becomes complicated but I can't stand this idea of MS being congenital... Just like cancer, is cancer congenital?... We alll have cancer cells and live with them but we do not develop tumors... MS works the same, and some people can have stenoses or low levels of seortonin without developping MS... I really hope those doctors will soon decide to stop the mascarade and start thinking!!! I mean how can one believe those specialists who so far have NEVER cured one case?!!!!!! Specilaists of what then?!!!
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