This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

Dr. Haacke discusses flow quantification in the YouTube video segment linked here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/HubbFound?b ... QpxR1nHOIg

six minutes in....



0 cm. of blood on this first half of the cardiac cycle, then 20cm on the second half. 60 cm of blood in a pwMS. This is NOT NORMAL.
cheer

_________________
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
dual stents placed 5/09
CCSVI in MS

I am trying to think what effect it would have to have these extreme swings. It sounds like, by speeding up the flow, the flow does all get out?

If it's not the iron in the brian that gets you, it's the hypoxia, and if it's not the hypoxia, it's the extreme fluctuations in flow. Amazing the harm a bad 'leaflet' or two can do.

Regarding Dr. Haacke's "stress on the system"... An article noting the "coincidence" of raised CSF and cranial pressure with MS. The authors suggest that the O-bands caused an increased pressure, though in my opinion this process is backwards. Nevertheless, they do illustrate a correlation (granted in a very small sample) between raised CSF and MS.




http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/item_v ... CISOPTR=81 (from 1994)

[/quote]

Also:

Increased intracranial pressure in a case of pediatric multiple sclerosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18539995

[Efferent methods of the treatment of cerebrospinal fluid hypertension in exacerbation of multiple sclerosis].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1647618


Lastly, does anyone have an image from Hubbard's San Diego presentation where he shows the pressure system drawn up by an engineer? Can't find that image in a nice format.

I'm past my depth, does this have any connection with classic fluid mechanics as presented at ISNVD?

http://ccsvism.xoom.it/ISNVD/Other/Abstract-Tucker.pdf

I'm not sure that's the one I was looking for. Sou had mentioned 'deadly CSF oscillations' back in the ISNVD thread. The mention here of wild swings reminded me of that.

Dr. Siskin uses the flow 'stuff'. He's all about the flow and not just stenosis now.

_________________
http://myhopefuljourneyintoactualmsreco ... ogspot.com

Yup. You got it, Lew.
"It's the flow, not the architecture."
Dr. Paolo Zamboni said those words to me in Bologna 2009. He was concerned that if doctors treated only stenosis, and did not address flow, they wouldn't be getting at the cause of CCSVI.

Cece, yes, it's about the classic fluid mechanism model that was shown in Bologna in March and the research by Dr. Beggs and Dr. Tucker.
http://ccsvism.xoom.it/ISNVD/Abstract-Beggs.pdf

cheer

_________________
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
dual stents placed 5/09
CCSVI in MS

I read this short but very meaningful article, and I remembered a comment of mine from times past. I was brought up with electronics symbols. Eventually, after learning how they are physically constructed, it became apparent to me why, for instance, a resistor was a zigzag line and an inductor was a springy-looking thing. When I encountered some other physical mathematics, some of the symbols used were of a spring, a weight on a string, a brush or something that represented friction (I was never quite clear what it was supposed to be) etc, but the ones I was most familiar with, because of their usefulness, were the electronics symbols.

It strikes me that there is no such symbology for diagramming the workings of the human body. I don't know if there is such a set of symbols for terms in hydrodynamics, but it seems to me they, and probably a lot more, would come in handy. I took this paper and reduced it to a set of unique terms, at least some of which could be featured in a diagram illustrating this paper, and some of which could be shown as standard symbols, marked with scientific units of quantity or describing somehow their physical properties quantitatively. Some things could be shown with more generic symbols, such as a large arrow, for instance, to indicate "bulk flow". Others could be more pictorial. Then more people, I think, could be "on the same page".

Please excuse this list as it is meant only to be an example and not to be rigorous or exact or complete in any way.

It would be nice if there were well-understood symbol rules too, like: Greek symbols for fluid properties, etc.

angioplasty
blood flow
the heart
blood pressure
the brain
bulk flow
cerebral blood flow (CBF)
cerebral blood vessels
cerebral vascular circuit
cerebral veins
cerebral venous system
cerebrospinal fluid (CSF)
collateral rerouting
cortical region
cortical veins
CSF
CSF efflux
CSF systems
deep venous systems
superficial venous systems
endothelia
extensive collateral rerouting
extracranial venous pathways
extracranial venous stenosis
fluid dynamics
hydraulic resistance
hypertension
hypoxia-like metabolic injury
hypoxia
MS lesions
normally appearing white matter
periventricular region
periventricular veins
pressure
pressure drop
pressure gradient
sinuses
sphincters/starling resistors
SSS
stenosis
stenotic vessels
stress
subarachnoid space
superior sagittal sinus (SSS)
system resistance
the venous system
thin walled vessels
veins
venous pressure
venous sinuses
very low pressures

_________________
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'_MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience

Further reasons for a diagrammatic representation: I understand electronics best when I think of it as plumbing: there is something very analogous about the movement of charge through metal conductors and the movement of iron oxide in blood around the body. They are both fluids. Blood flow obeys fluid mechanics, hydraulic principles which are very analogous to the way charges move. There are many mathematical concepts and physical principles which must be kept in mind when predicting the movements and current location of the fluids. I know this is hard to translate into clinical terms, but that is a lot like what I did for a few years of my life, in engineering design pursuits and troubleshooting.

_________________
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'_MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience

Remenber that the stress on the walls of the vessel purportedly agraveate or cause the BBB leakage. If reverse flow can do this, I suppose undue rapid flow can harm the vessel walls. Also the steady flow of oxygen and glucose in and metabolic waste products out would, over time, be different that busts of each. Since MS is a looong term chronic disease, a slight difference over the 70 beats you experience every minute could lead to a problem over years that would not be immediately noticeable due to slight variations of normal. one reason it is hard to study.

Make sure you have popcorn, a comfy pillow, and a blankie...

Things are getting too intellectual and complex for me. I'm sorry to have to leave this discussion to the experts... the terminology is getting a bit arcane as well, for my liking.

_________________
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'_MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience