Does Endothelial dysfunction = MS?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Does Endothelial dysfunction = MS?

Postby NZer1 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:50 pm

Could this be true?
The bottom line as a person with a vested interest is that there is information coming out that we as interested parties can help assemble in a fashion that progresses this understanding.
There is information, research, studies and the like that show that endothelial dysfunction is the area needing the most research and quickly.
Joan and Marie have moved mountains on this so far.
There is now a picture forming where diet can alter the course of 'MS'
There are outcomes that show that angio treatment is altering the course of 'MS'.
There is now links between trauma and spine alignment and 'MS'.
There is solid evidence that breaches of the BBB are involved in 'MS'.
There is mounting evidence that there are other links that alter the likely hood of people developing 'MS' although they do not cause 'MS', such as latitude, ancestry, smoking, stress and others factors that are prevalent in PwMS.

My point is that there is one common denominator that needs the most attention. A point that repeatedly is implicated in the findings so far. A point that we seem to be walking around and not seeing. Or a point that hasn't been languaged in a way that has gotten collective attention. Many people are so focused on their specialty or point of focus that it is going under the radar.

Treatments like angio and chiropractic are changing the flow, diet is changing the content of the flow, exercise is changing the pumping of the flow, DMDs/Crabs drugs are modifying the effect of leakage from the flow.

All these things come back to one area that is needing intense investigation the endothelial function and dysfunction. We are able to witness the failing of the endothelial lining, what we need is to focus on is the process and identify what is causing the outcomes we are seeing e.g de-generative diseases.
Happy pondering,
Nigel
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Postby cheerleader » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:49 pm

Hi Nigel--
I don't think it "equals" MS, but may allow it to occur or progress.
That was my concept behind writing the Endothelial Health Program and contacting Dr.John Cooke (author of The Cardiovascular Cure) at Stanford and sharing the research I'd put together on endothelial dysfunction and MS. He agrees, there is something there...and many researchers around the world continue to look at this
http://www.ccsvi.org/index.php/helping- ... ial-health
Dr. Berislav Zlokovic is looking at ED in Alzheimer's and spoke at the Bologna ISNVD conference last March. Much to learn about the cerebral endothelium.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby NZer1 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:56 pm

Thanks Marie, regards Nigel

Studies !
by CCSVI in Multiple Sclerosis on Friday, July 1, 2011 at 2:12pm
This is Marie writing this note~

Studies are what are needed to move us forward from the MS establishment view "CCSVI is questionable or worse" to "CCSVI is a legitimate treatment in the battle agaisnt MS".

This seems to many CCSVI proponents to be moot; from their perspective the question is why do we need studies when it is so obvious the veins are blocked? why not just treat the veins?

And it is completely fair question; after all, a person with the autoimmune disease antiphospholipid syndrome (Hughes syndrome--the clotting one) doesn't get someone asking if repair of their clotted veins in the brain will cure the APS--it will not--but treatment of these blood clots is done without question.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18388066

Unfortunately from a medical standpoint there is a difference between APS and blockage of cerebral veins vs. what is seen in CCSVI; In APS the clot develops suddenly and there is no collateral circulation or other compensation made by the body because it happens too fast. It makes the patient acutely and dramtically ill as pressure builds up in their head, and sometimes they even die. This is the kind of dramtic blockage doctors are used to.

On the other hand, CCSVI appears to be a chronic developmental issue and the body compensates with collateral circulation and other methods to cope with the low oxygen state CCSVI creates. Yes the blood flow is slow, but the blood does get through. So it isn't as obvious to an objective observer that the slower blood flow is a problem--you can't take a reading of the pressure in the head of a CCSVI patient like you can in APS and find a gross increase, nor is the CCSVI person slipping in and out of consciousness etc. Therefore the traditional way of saying "Oh yes this is a big problem" is not there.

That doesn't mean it isn't a big problem! Joan has written eloquently about how low oxygen may be the originator of damage to astrocytes, oligodendrocytes and other structures in the MS brain. This takes what is known about venous insufficiency of the legs and postulates how similar insufficiency would impact structures and cells in the brain. It can be thought of as a slow motion disaster for the brain (as opposed to that dramatic APS blockage). But that is still a theory.

So that means we have to prove that these less-than-complete-blockages matter in their own right even though doctors can't see the problem the same way they can with a severe clot.

We are on our way to this though. Dr Hubbard's BOLD work has shown that MSers before CCSVI treatment show abnormally poor oxygenation when trying to do a mental task. Since the normal readings are already known, this means there is no question about these people with MS demonstrating poor oxygenation in their brains in the BOLD test. This also is in keeping with older MS research--MSers have poor oxygen perfusion in the brain, and that is well known. So everyone agrees--poor oxygenation MS brains.

But Dr Hubbard's BOLD work showed that these oxygen levels improved markedly after an MSer has a CCSVI procedure.

This is kind of shocking to MS specialists because if you can fix it with a procedure and never do ANYTHING to the immune system to stop inflammation then it is not inflammation that caused the poor oxygenation as MS experts had thought. it shows that a completely objective test demonstrates differences in oxygen levels before and after treatment.

It is this kind of research that is going to win the day.

One can only HOPE that the new studies being proposed to investigate CCSVI offer other clear, objective work such as this. Let's hope no one tries to do a double blind trial without experience in evaluating and treating CCSVI, and let's hope the people who are deciding which studies to fund, actually fund studies that fairly evaluate the CCSVI model--not ones that are de facto evaluations of whether the inexperienced IR can do even the treatment successfully!

But we have the BRAVE dreams study coming on line as well as more and ongoing data coming from the Hubbard's IRB, studies on animals with blocked veins, and other unique ways of evaluating CCSVI (Like Dr Simka's OCT study) that shed light on different aspects of CCSVI.

Things are moving, and in reality this is lightning speed for new science. We're doing well. Keep supporting research! It's the key!

For interesting reading on trials and science and how it has been biased by commercial interests, read "Overdosed America" By Dr Abramson. He lays it on the line and really tells readers how manipulated our medical community is when it comes to research for pharmaceuticals. it is a great book.

And if you haven't gotten your CCSVI book what are you waiting for?! The digital just came out and is only 9.99 (you can get a free app for your computer if you don't have a Kindle) and the hard copy is 35 and the pictures are better in the real book. Go to http.www.ccsvibook.com to look at it and read excerpts if you like.

~marie
http://www.facebook.com/notes/ccsvi-in- ... 8518412211
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Postby civickiller » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:06 pm

when i got to talk with dr hewett, i tried to explain vein blockages caused by ucc, tos, ctos. he knew about tos but he probably didnt give what i said a second thought

but hey dr's know everything right :roll:
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Re: Does Endothelial dysfunction = MS?

Postby Cece » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:37 am

http://www.ajronline.org/content/180/6/1583.short
Vascular obstruction may also occur in the liver at the microscopic level. Commonly termed “venoocclusive disease,” microscopic obstruction is due to marked fibrosis in hepatic sinusoids produced by a toxic insult to endothelial cells and may not necessarily involve the hepatic venules [35]. Damaged endothelial cells swell, slough, and embolize distally, causing microvascular obstruction.

This is from a paper on vascular obstruction in the liver. But it seems relevant to consider if microscopic vascular obstruction could occur within the brain in MS. Endothelial health program could help.
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Re: Does Endothelial dysfunction = MS?

Postby ttucker3 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:54 am

Thanks for posting this Nigel. I agree with your points but I would add that I very briefly described in my presentation in Orlando some links between endothelial dysfunction/BBB disruption and other factors such as smoking, gender, latitude, diet, vit D., EBV, etc in combination with venule overpressure from venous reflux as the probable primarily underlining origins of MS. Unfortunately I have had to drop my MS research because of other pressures in my life. But I note that Cece posted an item about research reported by Toroe et al at a Chilean conference about the application of Computational Fluid Dynamics to CCSVI and venous reflux. The CFD approach should provide quantified estimates of overpressure in the venules and the resulting impact on the endothelium that will begin to bring all of the strands of influence on MS formation together. I hope, I foresee and I predict. Sounds like I have an ego as big as Cleveland doesn't it?
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Re: Does Endothelial dysfunction = MS?

Postby cheerleader » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:07 am

Thanks for visiting, Dr. Tucker. Sorry to read that you're having to put your MS research aside. The ISNVD benefitted much from having your input and publication in fluid dynamics. Dr. Cooke is still working on the endothelial research in MS and BNAC is still looking at environmental factors which affect CCSVI, and they have found several endothelial disrupters linked with the severity of CCSVI, including smoking and EBV. Not an ego big as Cleveland...just an understanding that what you have brought to the table, which has been incredibly beneficial in understanding computational fluid dynamics. Thanks to you, the dialogue will continue.

More and more researchers are looking at how cerebral perfusion begins neurodegeneration in all of the other neurological disorders (ONDs.) Many are finding environmental factors which either benefit or harm the endothelium and progression of these conditions.

Exercise, a diet low in saturated fats, optimum vitamin D levels, exposure to UV rays, whole foods (not processed), lots of colorful fruits and vegetables high in phytonutrients and antioxidants, stress mitigation, good sleep, no smoking, limiting exposure to toxins and heavy metals....
these are all lifestyle factors which can improve the lining of our blood vessels, encourage better cerebral perfusion, decrease MS symptoms, preserve gray matter and prolong health. As Dr. Cooke says, You're only as old as your endothelium. I see the living proof at home, everyday. No more petechiae, no more high liver enzymes, no more hypercoagulation, no MS progression and a reversal of gray matter atrophy on MRI.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Does Endothelial dysfunction = MS?

Postby Cece » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:45 am

The CFD approach should provide quantified estimates of overpressure in the venules and the resulting impact on the endothelium that will begin to bring all of the strands of influence on MS formation together.

I would be very happy to see this happen. The logic is there.
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Re: Does Endothelial dysfunction = MS?

Postby NZer1 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:26 pm

Good posts,
my brain has to say, if we had good diets, good exercise, good genes, no stress and so on, we would be able to stave off many diseases.
Generally in today's terms we don't.

That brings into the arena all possibilities for ill health.

When the basic assaults happen, primary assaults such as Bacteria happen and we are 'victims' to their attacks.

If we have dysfunctional veins and reflux then the access by any blood born invader is open.

So immediately we have two major factors beginning a puzzle. Bacteria that can access the Brain directly. Add a few more factors like inappropriate diet and stress and hey presto we have multi-factual disease waiting for a name. Lets call some of that disease expression 'MS"!

Now lets look from the other direction and try to understand the puzzle. A person walks into your office and is dx-ed with 'MS' and wants to know what it will take to understand what has caused this and wants to become well again. What if you are a Medical Specialist, or should I say a one option thinker.

Hello!

Many pieces to this puzzle and to add more confusion add time and Natural ageing processes!

Regards,
Nigel
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