dental work and CCSVI

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

dental work and CCSVI

Postby 1eye » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:26 am

HappyPoet PM'd me she was having an attack after some dental work. I sent her a reply but I thought maybe I'd pass it on:

Dentists use a drug they will never tell you about unless you ask, called epinephrine, which is adrenaline. They use it because it stops you from bleeding. It is combined with the anesthetic they use to 'freeze' you.

As soon as you are frozen you may notice you are also breathing hard, and other things. That is the epinephrine.

I had so much before an extraction, that after the extraction I went into shock. They had to call Suzanne to come and get me. After I found out about the "MS" and the epinephrine (which, being adrenaline, I think is very dangerous to anyone with MS), I talked to my dentist, and ever since then they have been using straight novocaine, which is fine.

The other advantage to epinephrine from the dentists viewpoint is that it makes the anesthetic effect last longer. This is true, but in my case not worth it. Give me an extra shot of novocaine if you have to, later on, but NO EPI! The other advantage to me is that my mouth feels normal sooner. I also think I have less residual pain from dental work after leaving the office, but that's subjective.

Try it without epinephrine. You might like it (YMMV).

You freeze quicker. You unfreeze quicker (probably both blood flow). You bleed more. It doesn't last as long (faster unfreezing). If you had an exacerbation, remember what might be behind all this is lack of blood flow. That's one reason maybe everybody with "MS" ought to know about CCSVI!
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Postby Cece » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:36 am

Interesting about the epinephrine, 1eye.

Other factors with dental work could be holding the head in an uncomfortable position, being supine (if one's jugulars are blocked), and the stress of being there.

I am sorry that HappyPoet has not been well. :(
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Postby sou » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:14 pm

As soon as you are frozen you may notice you are also breathing hard, and other things. That is the epinephrine.


AFAIK, epinephrine/adrenaline open wide the airways and are given as a first-aid to patients experiencing allergic shock that prevents them from breathing.

Note:

Epinephrine is a greek word: Epi (=on, mounted on) + Nephros (=kidney)
Adrenaline is the latin equivalent word: Ad (=on, mounted on) + Ren (=kidney)

The adrenal glands are called 'επινεφρίδια' (epinephr'idia) in greek.

So, epinephrine and adrenaline are two names for the exact same substance.
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Postby HappyPoet » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:32 pm

Thank you for your sentiments, guys, I'll feel better soon... cogfog is already starting to lift. :)

1eye, you are so kind having given me this information about EPI, and your idea to share the info with everyone is terrific. :)

To the list of 1eye's EPI, and Cece's uncomfortable head positioning, being supine in the chair, and stress of being there, I'll add pain -- I don't handle pain well, especially head pain of any kind (sinus, eye, ear ache, headache, and tooth pain). :(

I wonder if laughing gas is good or bad for CCSVI. I'm always given 50% nitrous oxide.
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Postby 1eye » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:01 pm

sou wrote:
As soon as you are frozen you may notice you are also breathing hard, and other things. That is the epinephrine.


AFAIK, epinephrine/adrenaline open wide the airways and are given as a first-aid to patients experiencing allergic shock that prevents them from breathing.

Note:

Epinephrine is a greek word: Epi (=on, mounted on) + Nephros (=kidney)
Adrenaline is the latin equivalent word: Ad (=on, mounted on) + Ren (=kidney)

The adrenal glands are called 'επινεφρίδια' (epinephr'idia) in greek.

So, epinephrine and adrenaline are two names for the exact same substance.


I think it is dangerous to administer such a substance without even telling people. It is produced by the body, but like water, in large doses, it can have devastating effects. Has it ever gone through randomized controlled clinical testing? Yes, it saves lives every day when given for anaphylactic shock. But I also do believe it was part of why I went into shock. Does it ever kill? Does anyone keep track? Would anyone admit it if it did?

It's part of our fight-or-flight chemistry: in danger, you need your airways clear and your heart beating fast. At the same time, you don't want to bleed much from any wounds you get, because of the loss of blood and the trail it leaves. Very powerful drug, but messes me up. Might even be involved in triggering "MS" problems.
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Postby MrSuccess » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:12 pm

just throwing this out there .... food for thought ... :idea:

At the risk of being hung by my thumbs by the dental fraternity .....

Here goes :

As some very wise people have shown us ....... MS seems to be more prevalent north of the equator ...... but still known everywhere .

We are told of "MS clusters " .

We are told of the Faroe Islands oddity.

Mr.Success muses that somehow someway .... MS might involve dental work. Dental work is the hallmark of prosperity . Many of the countries listing MS as common ...... are considered prosperous. People have access to and have dental plans. Thus .... a common denominator.

MS Clusters ? Maybe they see the same people or dental clinic ? It strikes Mr.Success as more likely than not ..... there are fewer options in some places .... and so , these clusters warrant a little detective work .....

Faroe Islands ? Perhaps these soldiers had dental work for the first time in their lives ? Don't forget what life was like back then ..... most were lucky to have ever seen a doctor ...... much less a dentist .

I'd like to see if this idea holds up :idea:

And are women not more likely than men to seek out medical-dental help as oppossed to men ....... who are famous for dodging any trips to the doctor or dentist ....... until the situation is dire ?

Does this explain the 4 women to 1 man ....... MS ratio ?

It's as good a theory as there is ........ as with Dr.Zamboni ......prove me wrong.



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Postby Cece » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:15 pm

lol, MrSuccess...we cannot prove you wrong, you have to prove yourself right.... :)

Find a community in the US that does not have a dentist then find out if indeed there are no people with MS in that community.
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Postby MrSuccess » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:28 pm

well ..... I could be right . You never know.

I hope my so-called theory hasn't resulted in any march's on anyone's dental practice. I envision pitch forks and burning torch's ....... 8O

It strikes me as worthwhile ..... for someone to research the medical -dental history of those Faroe Island MS sufferers.

Was this restricted to soldiers stationed there ....... or was dentistry [ if any ] offered to local inhabitants also ? [ like you see on MASH ... :lol: ]

As for places that have little or no MS ........ good luck to you if you ever have a tooth ache . [ or ME ..... if this proves out :cry: ]



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Postby MrSuccess » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:02 pm

and I add this .... wouldn't it be interesting to compare the ratio of men to women as patients in any given dental practice .....

If the numbers mirror the MS ratio numbers ......... 8O

Any dental people out there willing to find this out ? :idea:





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Postby Cece » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:13 pm

I have heard argument that dental fillings were at fault but never the dentistry itself.

My best guess at the Faroe Island situation is that it was not MS. It was another illness, more communicable, that was mistaken for MS.
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Postby MrSuccess » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:40 pm

some interesting research - Charcot- Marie-Tooth .... sound familiar ?

the history of dentistry is ..... longer than you can imagine ......

..... and if my memory is to be trusted ..... did not ALL of the inventors of anesthesia die from personal addiction of their own great discovery ?

very sad ...... the price paid ........ for medical history and advancement .

we can only imagine the state of dental care .... in Charcot's time .....

Is there a connection ? :?:


I wouldn't bet AGAINST it.




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Postby euphoniaa » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:05 am

MrSuccess wrote:some interesting research - Charcot- Marie-Tooth .... sound familiar ?

the history of dentistry is ..... longer than you can imagine ......

..... and if my memory is to be trusted ..... did not ALL of the inventors of anesthesia die from personal addiction of their own great discovery ?

very sad ...... the price paid ........ for medical history and advancement .

we can only imagine the state of dental care .... in Charcot's time .....

Is there a connection ? :?:


I wouldn't bet AGAINST it.

Mr.Success


Hi Mr. Success,

Just for clarification to the online masses who may not have heard of it, Charcot-Marie-Tooth (CMT) Disorder is not an oral affliction :) , but a heriditary peripheral neuropathy named after the docs who discovered it: Jean-Martin Charcot (a very big name in the history of MS), Pierre Marie, and Howard Henry Tooth. CMT is way more common than MS.

As a matter of fact, Ms. Euphoniaa is afflicted by another peripheral neuropathy in the same family as CMT – HNPP (the details of which she whines about regularly :) ) – which is characterized by a missing myelin gene rather than duplication of the same gene in CMT1A.

See CMT/HNPP link and quote from it below:
http://www.cmtausa.org/
What Is Charcot-Marie-Tooth Disorder (CMT)?
Charcot-Marie-Tooth, or CMT, is the most commonly inherited peripheral neuropathy... Discovered in 1886 by three physicians, Jean-Martin Charcot, Pierre Marie, and Howard Henry Tooth, CMT affects an estimated 2.6 million people.


If you study their symptoms, both CMT and HNPP sound like a mild version of MS, but without the brain damage (they’re degenerative, demyelinating, (but not dental), progressive, and cause weakness, numbness, tingling, foot drop, carpal tunnel, balance problems, etc. – no bad teeth there, either) :) and should be on any list of MS mimics.

As for dentistry in general, it has long been under a bit of scrutiny as a possible environmental culprit suspected of contributing to all manner of tragic diseases, including MS, due mainly to the use of mercury amalgam fillings (Google it).

There have been tons of studies, articles, and even books, with no unequivocal mercury link yet. I dutifully bought the Huggins book “It’s All in Your Head” at the suggestion of a flaky GP I went to a couple of times right after my MS dx, who also suggested I look into Bee Venom Therapy (Google that, too). Yikes.

FYI - There are lots of links about the Dental Amalgam Controversy at the MSRC site:
http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseact ... ageid/1596

I think it's too early to identify any connections between CCSVI and dentistry, but I daresay that the memories of patients lining up for intentional bee stings and removal of all their fillings - with still no cure of their MS – is doubtless contributing to the skepticism of neuros toward the new theory of CCSVI.

HP, I’m sorry to hear you had such a reaction. I’m surprised that I’ve never reacted badly to dental work, because I have nasty reactions to so many meds like antihistamines. Interesting...I wonder how epinephrine compares to that? My own dentist has both a daughter and an ex-wife with MS, and he no longer uses amalgam fillings. I think I’ll ask him what he thinks about epinephrine next time I’m under the drill.
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Dx'd with MS & HNPP (hereditary peripheral neuropathy) 7/03 but must have had MS for 30 yrs before that. I've never taken meds for MS or MS symptoms except 1 yr experiment on LDN. (I found diet, exercise, sleep, humor, music help me the most.)
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Postby MrSuccess » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:11 pm

thanks eu- I was not wanting to post all the CMT information , as I hope those interested enough ...... will do some homework for themselves.

You do know that I do not associate the " Tooth " name with any connection to MS & dental care ...... right ?

I would be very interested to read any studies in MS , that included collected numbers ..... of the amount of pwMS ..... that DO NOT have
any cavity work done on their teeth . And compare this with those pwMS that
had dental care ..... but have gold fillings.

maybe it matters not about the filling material ...... maybe the drug's they use ? Or ..... maybe an hour or two lying with your neck contorted at an odd angle ?

But I REALLY want to know this ..... How many pwMS have no history of ever having any dental work ?

After all ...... it is a SHORT distance from the jaw to the brain ...... :?:



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