CCSVI A simple reason

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

CCSVI A simple reason

Postby fee001 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:46 pm

Hi!

I am not trying to upset anyone, thats not my style.

But what if the cause of CCSVI is a lot more simple. And because the cervical spine area has become comprimised, causes this to be a knock on affect.

Why would that not be a possibility? Why could it not happen? this isnt to inflame a situation but perhaps a rational, adult debate is needed and well over due.

Its only when ALL heads get together that a solution/answer may be found.

We can continue to work apart on this one, or meet somewhere in the middle.



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Cause not treatment

Postby fee001 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:47 pm

Hi!

Just so it is clear, I am not talking about treatment here ok. Just the cause.

Not heresay or what you've been told, but your own gut reaction.

The bottom line yeah! make it simple so even I can understand it yeah!


Thanx

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Postby civickiller » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:46 am

i think Upper Cervical Care is half the battle causing vein stenosis which isnt caused by the incompetent valve by shifting of the spine

the other half is incompetent valve caused from damage or its congenital

thoughts?

wont even get into the atlas putting pressure on the nerves
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Postby Cece » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:13 am

If we are discussing CCSVI as described by its discoverer, Dr. Paolo Zamboni of Italy, then it was described here as being "characterized by combined stenoses of the principal pathways of extracranial venous drainage, including the internal jugular veins and the azygous vein, with development of collateral circles and insufficient drainage":
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/p ... 1409015687

He also describes it in another paper as consisting of intraluminary defects, meaning defects inside the vein. (I could not find that paper, does anyone have it?)

And here it was agreed upon by a consortium of experts in phelobology that CCSVI represented a newly discovered form of congenital malformations:
http://tinyurl.com/4xnfb35

As far as I am aware, there is nothing about the atlas in any of Dr. Zamboni's research. This is not to say that this cannot be a fruitful line of investigation! But to have the idea posted in many threads, without clarifying that it is a separate theory from Dr. Zamboni's, is confusing.
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Postby Robnl » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:55 am

It is the age of discovery, CeCe....why should the problems 'not' exist in other parts of the body?

Also, why does CCSVI 'only' causes trouble in the brain?? Imagine ccsvi in veins in the legs or arms, what would the result be? Numbness??
(i really dont know)
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Postby Cece » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:14 am

CCSVI in the legs....that would be chronic venous insufficiency, or varicose veins! It's what Dr. Zamboni used as an analogue in one of his first papers, 'The big idea':
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC16 ... ool=pubmed

I don't know why CVI doesn't exist in the arms though? Or maybe it does.

I would think anything in the body that can go wrong, does go wrong, although sometimes very rarely.
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Postby fee001 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:20 am

Cece,

You didnt get my point, the guy in Italy discovered a symptom not a cause.

Its the cause that needs to be discussed.

Try not to complicate it ok that again is my point. bottom line aas to what causes it.

Quote me a website that claims a cause and I will be very interested as to why they come to that conclusion.

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Postby Cece » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:30 am

And here it was agreed upon by a consortium of experts in phelobology that CCSVI represented a newly discovered form of congenital malformations:
www.fondazionehilarescere.org/pdf/consensus-ANGY.pdf


This is a research paper, not a website. They came to the conclusion through their expertise in phlebology, which would include both formal study and years of experience working in blood vessels.

CCSVI is not a symptom. A symptom of what? CCSVI is a disease of its own.

Here is a quote on how they classify venous malformations, which I think may be along the lines of what you're asking (how is it that CCSVI is classified as a venous malformation, thus saying that malformation is the cause of CCSVI):
Classification of venous malformations
Previous classification systems were established
based purely on clinical findings. This was before
the modern technology was available for accurate
diagnosis. These classification systems failed to
provide proper information concerning the etiology/
embryology, anatomy, and pathophysiology
involved in this vascular abnormality.
Numerous classifications of VMs have been proposed,
many based on the appearance of the anomaly,
its anatomy, pathology, or based on the velocity
of blood flow in the lesion. Many VMs are still
named after the clinician who first described the
lesion. Lack of an accepted, universal classification
system resulted in redundant terminology.
For example, terminology such as “cavernous
hemangioma”, “cavernous angioma”, “phlebangioma”,
“lymphangioma”, “Port wine stain”, etc.
only added to the confusion.
Therefore, a new classification system has been
accepted that fulfils the above criteria and provides
information regarding lesion etiology, embryology,
anatomy and pathophysiology of VMs
.
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Postby Cece » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:36 am

Simply put, in case it was hidden in all of the above:

Congenital malformation is the primary cause of CCSVI, according to a large group of phlebology experts. We were born with bad veins or bad valves.
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Postby fee001 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:37 am

As Atlas misalinment can happen at birth.

There needs to be independant investigation by someone not involved in gaining any financial reward from CCSVI.

And Dr Zamboni has not elliminated it as cause eithe


Also lets not let a clash of personalities cloud our judgement eh! I think you know what I mean. This is not the time or the place ok
I do my own research, and find my own answers Its good to talk
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ccsvi

Postby blossom » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:21 am

i agree 100 per cent with fee001 and civickiller!! i become interested in ccsvi when i read trauma could be one of the causes. it would only make good sence and what i would think science should be looking at and including in their research of ccsvi--and ccsvbp is as much a part of this long sought after answer to symptoms they call ms and the symptoms of many other so called diseases. if there are obstructions to a stream or river it will not flow efficiently and our bodies are not so different. let alone the pressure a misaligned spine and atlas will have on nerves etc.

this has to have a meeting of the minds with the research going on.

after all, they are supposed to be trying to get us better---not proving a point that this or that is the main stay. keeping it n a box whether it is ccsvi or whatever has not worked in the past so what makes anyone think it ill now!!

we are all different and so will be the cures--it has to be some mutual gathering of the minds of all these good dr.'s to be in the interest of the patients. none of the dr.'s own ms but we have to live with fhe symptoms--the sooner they start working together the sooner we have a shot at getting some real answers and relief.

hope they can get their heads on straight and get this straightened out.
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Postby Cece » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:22 am

And Dr Zamboni has not elliminated it as cause eithe

Dr. Zamboni is a phlebologist and vascular surgeon, not a chiropractor. He has investigated CCSVI in its context as a venous disease primarily consisting of within-the-vein defects. (Intraluminal=within the vein.)

It is great to be excited about atlas alignment. It is not great to confuse what is CCSVI and what is a misaligned atlas. A misaligned atlas certainly could cause issues on its own or in conjunction with CCSVI.
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ccsvi

Postby blossom » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:25 am

correction--i meant ccvbp not ccsvbp!! on the above comment.
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Postby fee001 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:35 am

blossom,

I wondered where you had got to, these past few days.

so gooday!! I think blossom is such a nice name, it just always makes me smile


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Postby HappyPoet » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:10 pm

For whatever they're worth, here are my thoughts:

CCSVI is a theory about congenital malformations inside veins.
CCVBP is a theory about misalignment of the Atlas vertebra.

Both theories are syndromes, not diseases.
Both theories give an explanation for a BBB breach and lesion formation.

CCSVI does not cause CCVBP.
Malformed veins cannot cause an Atlas to become physically misaligned.
Expert opinion of Phlebologists

CCVBP does not cause CCSVI.
Misalignment of the Atlas cannot cause a congenital venous malformation.
Expert opinion of Dr. Flanagan

A person can have both CCSVI and CCVBP -- I was diagnosed with both.
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