This is fascinating!!!!!

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby David1949 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:35 pm

Dania
Your post about Ginger really ignited the discussion about Daflon. As far as I know she is the only person with CCSVI to receive Daflon. We should be following her case closely. May I ask where you found the information about her?
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby dania » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:55 pm

Hi David. I found it on facebook CCSVI in MS Toronto. She has a new entry on her blog.
http://iamsickofms.blogspot.com/
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:01 am

Cece wrote:I wonder if anti-valvular remodeling means what you are suggesting. Yes, let's dig deeper.

I think I am still recovering from vacation and the start of the school year, I've missed half of this conversation and not understood the excitement.

You wouldn't happen to be willing to contact Dr. Bergan, would you, to ask him your questions? :-D
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:45 am

David1949 wrote:Maybe we're over-focused on vasoconstriction. Aspirin is also a vasoconstrictor, and yet it is sometimes prescribed as a long term means of preventing blood clots following venoplasty. The benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

With Daflon 500 the benefit is that it reduces adhesion of leukocytes to the endothelium. Now I'm not recomending that anyone run out and buy bootlegged Daflon to try it out. I'm just a jive engineer, not a doctor. 8) But I think Daflon makes a good topic for discussion.

David, thanks SO MUCH for helping to keep Daflon in the minds of many and for explaining about the leukocytes. If my understanding is correct, the leukocytes may play a large role in why there was a "progressive decrease" in annular remodeling of the treated group in the UCSD Daflon animal study.

Your point about aspirin is excellent! So glad you thought of it!!
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby Jugular » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:40 am

Has anyone thought to ask the company that makes Daflon 500 mg some of these questions? Servier is France's second largest pharmaceutical company. It is privately owned. Last year it claims to have done $5.2 billion US in worldwide sales. It also boasts that it ploughs back 25% of its annual sales into research. That translates into a modest research budget of $1.3 billion. Now THIS a company with the wherewithal to get the job done where governments have stumbled regarding CCSVI research. A drug like this offers the prospect of an alternative or an adjunct to surgical intervention. It doesn’t have to be injected, has few side effects, no known interactions, and is relatively inexpensive. Servier, question for you, how would you like to potentially add another billion or two in sales?
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby dania » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:55 am

I talked with someone at Servier in Laval, Quebec, Canada on tuesday . Here is their web site.

http://www.servier.com/
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby cheerleader » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:55 am

You could also maybe try bromelain, pineapple supplement, which does the exact same thing to leukocytes and is not vasoconstricting.
Bromelain treatment alters leukocyte expression of cell surface molecules involved in cellular adhesion and activation.
Hale LP, Greer PK, Sempowski GD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12165279
bromelain is used to treat inflammation in Germany, and is given to patients after surgery.


Here is research from Duke University that shows why Bromelain tamps down inflammation: it's all about decreasing the number of neutrophils that respond to a site of injury. Neutrophils are a special type of white blood cell that is called in after injury to tissue. They kill infectious agents and are defenders, but they also contribute to inflammation, and could potentially lead to restenosis, by leukocyte adhesion to injured blood vessels.

Bromelain, a mixture of proteases derived from pineapple stem, has been reported to have therapeutic benefits in a variety of inflammatory diseases, including murine inflammatory bowel disease. The purpose of this work was to understand potential mechanisms for this anti-inflammatory activity. Exposure to bromelain in vitro has been shown to remove a number of cell surface molecules that are vital to leukocyte trafficking, including CD128a/CXCR1 and CD128b/CXCR2 that serve as receptors for the neutrophil chemoattractant IL-8 and its murine homologues. We hypothesized that specific proteolytic removal of CD128 molecules by bromelain would inhibit neutrophil migration to IL-8 and thus decrease acute responses to inflammatory stimuli. Using an in vitro chemotaxis assay, we demonstrated a 40% reduction in migration of bromelain- vs. sham-treated human neutrophils in response to rhIL-8. Migration to the bacterial peptide analog fMLP was unaffected, indicating that bromelain does not induce a global defect in leukocyte migration. In vivo bromelain treatment generated a 50-85% reduction in neutrophil migration in 3 different murine models of leukocyte migration into the inflamed peritoneal cavity. Intravital microscopy demonstrated that although in vivo bromelain treatment transiently decreased leukocyte rolling, its primary long-term effect was abrogation of firm adhesion of leukocytes to blood vessels at the site of inflammation. These changes in adhesion were correlated with rapid re-expression of the bromelain-sensitive CD62L/L-selectin molecules that mediate rolling following in vivo bromelain treatment and minimal re-expression of CD128 over the time period studied. Taken together, these studies demonstrate that bromelain can effectively decrease neutrophil migration to sites of acute inflammation and support the specific removal of the CD128 chemokine receptor as a potential mechanism of action.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482869

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_ ... 2516222211


There are over 4,000 flavonoids. Diosmin was created for hemorrhoids and CVI, due to vasoconstricting properties of citrus fruit.
chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic17794.html

cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby dania » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:10 am

I tried Bromelain for over 6 months. Did nothing for me, unfortunately. Maybe I was not taking enough.
Cheer, what is the recommended dosage. Does this study say how much one should be taking to have any chance of being effective? Maybe I am blind but I did not see any dosage.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:55 pm

Ohmygosh, Cece, I forgot to thank you in my post! I'm so sorry.

Welcome aboard Cece! THANK YOU for helping us dig 'round the Internet to try to find info on Daflon. You're the best searcher I know! My searches are accidents that sometimes might lead down a lucky path, but your searches are most surely much more focused than mine. So very happy you'll help!
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:25 am

Cheer, thanks for the study!

Will be able to post more later.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby Hooch » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:46 am

I believe that Daflon 500 has the same effect as swimming in cool water,
on the legs - anyone remember the video of the man who couldn't walk until he went in the cold ocean. I also benefit from a cool water swim - vasoconstriction of lower limb veins. Unfortunately this doesn't last very long.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby tzootsi » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:21 am

Hooch wrote:I believe that Daflon 500 has the same effect as swimming in cool water,
on the legs - anyone remember the video of the man who couldn't walk until he went in the cold ocean. I also benefit from a cool water swim - vasoconstriction of lower limb veins. Unfortunately this doesn't last very long.


My wife's walking definitely improves after going into cool water. However I thought this was due to improved nerve firing when the body is cooled off.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:36 pm

cheerleader wrote:You could also maybe try bromelain, pineapple supplement, which does the exact same thing to leukocytes and is not vasoconstricting.

I was telling blossom just last night that she should ask her doctor about bromelain.

Studies comparing Daflon and bromelain to see how the compounds affect the annulus would be interesting and helpful because one compound might be better than the other compound regarding effects on the annulus--one compound might work faster, and/or have a more robust effect, and/or create stronger permeability defenses, etc., than the other compound.

I still can't find any studies on bromelain and the annulus, but with my poor searching skills, that result doesn't mean there aren't any such studies which is why I asked earlier (page one):

HappyPoet wrote:cheer, do you know if your recommended supplements, bromelain and quercetin, decrease valvular remodeling and reflux? Thank you!

If it's a given that Daflon and bromelain do 'the exact same thing' to leukocytes, it would be great if we could then assume that Daflon and bromelain do 'the exact same thing' to the annulus, but we can't really make that assumption, or can we? In addition to Daflon's effect on leukocytes, knowing if Daflon has other important actions that might account for its effect on the annulus would be good to know.

Bromelain might or might not affect the annulus in (all) the same way(s) that Daflon did in the UCSD study. We just don't know. We might never find, retrospectively nor prospectively, all the answers to all our questions, but we might learn much along the way.

Edit is in red
Last edited by HappyPoet on Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby dania » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:26 am

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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby dania » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:38 am

Scientific Publications, a lot of info.
http://www.labome.org/topics/chemicals/ ... 11381.html
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