Daflon 500mg tracking thread

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby Jugular » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:46 am

I think it is mistake to choose a drug or supplement for CCSVI/MS based on whether it is a vasodiolater or a vasoconstrictor. In truth, the large truncular veins where we are experiencing stenoses are likely to be unaffected one way or another. The dilating or constricting effects are referencing the microcirculation. I think it's more important to look at what potential endothelial benefits these substances bring to the table that can benefit us other than, incorrectly, presuming that "oh it's a vasodilator, it must be good".

A case in point is that the beneficial effects of L-Arginine (vasodilator) are boosted by caffeine (vasoconstrictor) http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/16 ... ginine-in/.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby dania » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:00 am

I guess we just have to try everything and see what works for the individual. We are all different. Just look at our symptoms, they vary from patient to patient.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby Jugular » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:27 pm

True that. It's going to be a while before we have any studies secondary to angio examining how best to prevent restenosis. One of the first, and easiest, would test restenosis rates among smokers and non-smokers. If smokers have a higher restenosis rate, as I expect they will, will be illuminating. The same can be said for exercise and then drugs/supplements.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby Cece » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:29 pm

http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/16/5/814.abstract
Caffeine induced changes in cerebral circulation
RJ Mathew and WH Wilson
While the caffeine induced cerebral vasoconstriction is well documented, the effects of oral ingestion of the drug in a dose range comparable to the quantities in which it is usually consumed and the intensity and duration of the associated reduction in cerebral circulation are unknown. Cerebral blood flow was measured via the 133Xenon inhalation technique before and thirty and ninety minutes after the oral administration of 250 mg of caffeine or a placebo, under double-blind conditions. Caffeine ingestion was found to be associated with significant reductions in cerebral perfusion thirty and ninety minutes later. The placebo group showed no differences between the three sets of cerebral blood flow values.

I think the vasoconstriction effects are on the microcirculation, but that includes the capillaries of the brain. We already have reduced cerebral perfusion as pwMS, we don't need it to be worse, which is why I am careful about vasoconstrictors. (And 250 mg of caffeine is pretty high: maybe two cups of coffee?)

I agree with dania about us all being different. I would have thought we'd all respond near the same way to CCSVI treatement but that has not been the case.

Best hopes to everyone still trying out Daflon.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby David1949 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:39 pm

I finished my 30 day supply of Daflon today. My conclusion is that there has been no effect on my MS symptoms. :cry:

Oh well. Back to the drawing board.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby CureOrBust » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:52 pm

I tried a 50 pack (2 a day) and I did not notice any improvements, so did not purchase another package.

Hopwever, I do see that this personal trial of mine is missing a few "end points". I was basically monitoring for improvements in EDSS, over short period. The other "end points" a proper study may consider, and may be the point of benefit for this are:
    Maybe it would reduce the number of relapses?
    Maybe it would reduce the severity of relapses when they do occur?
    Maybe it would help relapses resolve quicker?

I did note in another thread, an article I found that specifically talked about it with MS, and although I did not read it again yet, the quote I took out appears top implicate a 6month use of daflon; was it run by the manufacturers?

The Thread

The study paper

The Quote
After adjusting the baseline values of either group to 100%, a statistically significant difference in favour of the enzymes was demonstrated from the sixth month (p < .01 ), an even highly significant difference at end of therapy (p < .001 ).
If the difference at baseline is judged as clinically so relevant that a direct comparison during the course of the therapy is not acceptable, there is nevertheless a difference in favor of the enzymes in the change of the Kurtzke scale: whereas the value improved until the last available value in the enzyme group by 24.2% (from 3.3 to 2.5), it worsened in the corticosteroid group by (-)2.2% from 4.5 to 4.6.


Maybe its the combination treatment of Daflon AND patience....
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby Thekla » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:04 am

I have not been able to get Daflon prescribed here yet. My neuro said it wasn't his area. Otherwise, I have a month's experience with wine as a vasodilator. 1-2 glasses in the evening gets both of my feet warm now. I was occasionally having 1 or, more rarely, both feet warm. (They are grey are dead-cold otherwise by evening.) I started tracking wine and feet. Initially, I was getting one foot warm---usually my right (good leg). After about a week, both feet got warm. They still start off icy cold, then seem to get a rush of blood and turn pink and toasty warm. I can get to sleep much easier with warm feet. I am still trying to get the Daflon----I don't want to drink all day!! I am hoping it will provide a longer lasting benefit.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby dania » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:00 pm

Thekla wrote:I have not been able to get Daflon prescribed here yet. My neuro said it wasn't his area. Otherwise, I have a month's experience with wine as a vasodilator. 1-2 glasses in the evening gets both of my feet warm now. I was occasionally having 1 or, more rarely, both feet warm. (They are grey are dead-cold otherwise by evening.) I started tracking wine and feet. Initially, I was getting one foot warm---usually my right (good leg). After about a week, both feet got warm. They still start off icy cold, then seem to get a rush of blood and turn pink and toasty warm. I can get to sleep much easier with warm feet. I am still trying to get the Daflon----I don't want to drink all day!! I am hoping it will provide a longer lasting benefit.

If you want a vasodilator try Viagra or Cialis. It helped me.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby Jugular » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:07 pm

Well I ran out of my supply of Daflon about a week ago and have switched to Pycnogenol. So far I think I like Daflon better (I've ordered some more) but it's too early to tell. Nothing major to report, just my baby steps. I'm not sure why I got such a great surge when I first started taking it. I was then at the 9 month mark and every 3 months I seem to hit a snag in my recovery followed by a breakthrough. True to form, these last few days my forearm seems weaker. Once again I'm hoping for that 1 step back 2 steps forward effect. Perhaps it's the antioxidant effect I was needing?

Anyway, neither nor Daflon should produce a positive effect so quickly. It could take a really long time to be noticeable. So I plan on continuing with alternating between Daflon and Pycnogenol for the foreseeable future and hope that it continues to contribute to my CCSVI recovery.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby 1eye » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:57 pm

Cece wrote:http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/16/5/814.abstract
Caffeine induced changes in cerebral circulation
RJ Mathew and WH Wilson
While the caffeine induced cerebral vasoconstriction is well documented, the effects of oral ingestion of the drug in a dose range comparable to the quantities in which it is usually consumed and the intensity and duration of the associated reduction in cerebral circulation are unknown. Cerebral blood flow was measured via the 133Xenon inhalation technique before and thirty and ninety minutes after the oral administration of 250 mg of caffeine or a placebo, under double-blind conditions. Caffeine ingestion was found to be associated with significant reductions in cerebral perfusion thirty and ninety minutes later. The placebo group showed no differences between the three sets of cerebral blood flow values.

I think the vasoconstriction effects are on the microcirculation, but that includes the capillaries of the brain. We already have reduced cerebral perfusion as pwMS, we don't need it to be worse, which is why I am careful about vasoconstrictors. (And 250 mg of caffeine is pretty high: maybe two cups of coffee?)

I agree with dania about us all being different. I would have thought we'd all respond near the same way to CCSVI treatement but that has not been the case.

Best hopes to everyone still trying out Daflon.


Ask anyone who's ever tried cold turkey from a caffeine addiction or used a nitro spray. Those headaches hurt!!!
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby NormB » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:47 am

Greetings all,
Just a small report; I have tried Servier's Daflon 500 for a month and nothing was felt or changed. Hoping for better results from you all.

Take care

Norm Brisson
'92 diag RR - '05 SP
On LDN since Sept. 2012 with better quality of life.
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Re: Daflon 500mg tracking thread

Postby Rosegirl » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:22 am

I tried it for 3 months and it completely got rid of the sensation of having "heavy legs". I still have major problems walking, but it sure takes a lot less effort now. I stopped taking it several months ago, and the benefits are still there.
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