Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achieved

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby MrSuccess » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:59 am

Hi Greekfromthemed , Did you read the article ? Out of the 8 people tested on this new upright MRI ...... 7 had reported trauma as preceding their MS. Seven out of eight . 7/8

I have reported here that two separate studies by two separate doctors .... produced the statistically remarkable fact that about 6% [ one study said 5% , one study 7% ] of those involved in some type of trauma ..... go on to develop MS.

The population at large ..... does not feature MS in 6% of the people.

Theory ? What isn't a theory .......


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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby Cece » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:16 am

MrSuccess wrote:Hi Greekfromthemed , Did you read the article ? Out of the 8 people tested on this new upright MRI ...... 7 had reported trauma as preceding their MS. Seven out of eight . 7/8

It says the patients were randomly selected but could they have selected themselves by opting for chiropractic care?
The trauma was also not directly preceding their MS for all of them but years earlier or in childhood. A person with MS might be more likely to report trauma, since they've spent time scrutinizing their history and wondering why-me. I'm not sure I know anyone who has not had some form of trauma, if trauma is defined broadly enough. This was also a study funded by the maker of the upright MRI, if I understood that correctly, and I am familiar with how pharmaceutical-funded studies have potential bias. Still I would be interested in hearing more of Dr. K's creds and in whatever is found in a larger study. I expect that we do have abnormal CSF flow.
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby ApVish » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:21 am

I also wonder if one didnt have trauma during childhood, but if they have something similar to a scoliosis, then they are prone to develop MS ?

Meaning some abnormality with their spines.
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby HappyPoet » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:45 am

THEGREEKFROMTHED,

You're not alone in being confused. Sometimes I want to pull out my hair!

Perhaps part of the answer lies in the quality of care received after the trauma. I broke my neck in two places in a skiing accident, but I received no care at all afterward -- when my siblings and I were children, we didn't speak up unless blood was gushing out of an artery, an eyeball had popped out, or a limb had been torn off, major trauma of that sort.

So, my body found a (pathological) way to support my neck, but it was not as good of a way as proper medical treatment would have been--the way I supported my neck caused many structural problems lower in my spine. The two broken bones in my neck were only discovered because I had X-rays taken by my AO doctor last year. Also discovered: misaligned Atlas (head tilt), scoliosis, spondylosis, stenosis, and more.

Maybe you'll want to ask an AO doctor for proper X-rays so you'll know whether or not your vertebra healed properly. If your Atlas is misaligned, you could have problems with veins, arteries, and nerves as they leave the skull. A misaligned Atlas is easy and painless to correct; I started noticing benefits within a few days of having my head on straight for the first time in decades. :wink:

I believe our neurological symptoms are due to myriad reasons, and it's up to each patient to investigate as many of the possibilities as possible until all neuro symptoms are relieved. I've done the DMDs, chemo, UCC, CCSVI, and now I'm starting to investigate antibiotics for Lyme Disease and the supplements, Daflon and NAG. Here's a post I made a couple days ago: Daflon 500 Tracking Thread
HappyPoet wrote:David, it's early days yet, so please hang in there. I have a feeling, though, that this particular flavonoid hypothesis will only help a subset of "MS" patients, those with CVI. "MS" has so many hypotheses that it's almost crazy: infectious agents, congenital problems, environmental toxins, genetics, vertebral misalignment (CCVBP), nutritional deficiencies, autoimmune components, and venous obstruction, congestion, inflammation, remodeling, and hypertension (CCSVI and CVI).
Last edited by HappyPoet on Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby munchkin » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:48 am

At present I don't have scoliosis but I am at risk of developing it due to my muscle weakness from MS. There are so many factors at play with this disease called MS, one of the results of the discovery of CCSVI is a renewed interest in the cause of MS.

I'm not sure where I read a comment about the arteries pulsating causes the CSF to flow. This is how I am taking the information in laymans terms - the reduced flow out of the brain (CCSVI) would cause slowed flow in to the brain (affecting the pulsating time of the artery) causing the flow of CSF to be altered. Does this sound reasonable?
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby 1eye » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:32 am

I have noted that the way a Starling resistor works is that a flexible tube filled with a flow of non-compressible fluid is made to appear longer or narrower (has a higher apparent resistance to the flow), due to the impact of external pressure from the surrounding fluid. That happens whenever a vein passes through spinal fluid, which must be the case for both veins and arteries of the ventricles, where CSF lives. In fact, most "MS" brain plaques are "perivenous" AND "periventricular". Are the sites areas of interface between the two, where CSF surrounds the vein wall? Maybe areas where CSF is generated, from plasma in blood? But arteries are less flexible and have less Starling resistance than veins.

The influence of a Starling tube's surrounding fluid is to increase the viscosity of it's internal fluid, and thus slow its flow, in a non-linear way. Dr. Beggs told me that what might be happening also, is a different phenomenon due, I think, to the reverse happening: the pulse of blood through the brain acting on the fluid pressure of the CSF flow. In any case, it is well to remember that fluids are non-compressible, and so is the brain case and spinal column. So the result of a change in pressure is not only to change the viscosity of fluids passing through the C-S vessels, but to compress any compressible tissue (like brain cells and cord nerves) which happen to share those chambers (and perhaps cause micro-leaking!). That would include the ventricles themselves, full of non-compressible CSF, made of containers of compressible tissue, fed and drained by flexible tubes full of non-compressible fluids. The result of a pressure increase over time could well be atrophy and tissue loss, BBB rupture, micro-leaks, etc.

The heartbeat causes a periodic pressure wave to pass through the bony skull and spine, which has dynamic effects on the CSF, and there is interaction between any continuous or traumatic changes in the CSF pressure (and viscosity) and the blood pressure (and viscosity). Add to that, changes in posture causing gravity's influence on flow to change (remember how often attacks appear first thing after sleep?), and a very complex set of physical interactions are set off. No wonder it's hard to figure out.

To complicate all that, as I have noted, blood vessels in eyeballs may all be Starling resistors!
Last edited by 1eye on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:41 am

i have seen a couple studies on the arterial pulsation thing in the context of syringomyelia - here's one

Arterial pulsation-driven cerebrospinal fluid flow in the perivascular space: a computational model.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12959757

interesting:
Circulatory effects of sublingual and oral sustained-release nitroglycerin in healthy young men
http://www.springerlink.com/content/p963406033788574/
"Sublingual nitroglycerin increased heart rate and arterial pulsation"

i can't find the study i want, nobody seems to have done it yet, but, naturally i'm curious about the role of calcium and magnesium in arterial pulsation.

also, i found this interesting.

Vascular stiffness is related to superoxide generation in the vessel wall http://journals.lww.com/jhypertension/A ... de.17.aspx
"By measuring vascular superoxide generation and aortic compliance using cardiac MRI, we demonstrated a functional relationship between oxidative stress and vascular stiffness."

...Cu/Zn-superoxide-dismutase is an enzyme that protects against superoxide's oxidant effects. you can't make this enzyme if you don't have enough zinc on board...

(whew can't believe i didn't lose this post - that was a close one)
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby 1eye » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:51 am

jimmylegs wrote:...Cu/Zn-superoxide-dismutase is an enzyme that protects against superoxide's oxidant effects. you can't make this enzyme if you don't have enough zinc on board...


Or copper?
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby bestadmom » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:23 am

Hey George,


I bet Don doesn't have ccsvi and I think that's the common thread. BNAC found it in 22% (I think) of normals. Of course what do I know.
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:44 am

yep, either or, 1eye.

zinc gets mentioned more frequently in the research though.

here's one study that does observe lower copper levels in some ms patients:
"The serum concentrations of zinc and copper were measured in 50 patients with multiple sclerosis. Lower serum zinc levels were found compared to age- and sex-matched controls. In younger patients low serum copper concentrations were noted. Zinc concentrations in CSF were unchanged. The possibility that malabsorption of the metals causes the low serum concentrations is discussed"

here's some data from that study adapted for my own purposes a few years ago - check out in this old post how sub-par the zinc levels are on average, even in the controls! probably gluten eaters :)

general-discussion-f1/topic5486.html#p39241
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby pklittle » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:37 pm

In Aug, I had an upright MRI of my lumbar region after I took a fall and tore a disc at L5-S1.

Ironically, it was difficult for me to step up into the machine, as there is nothing to hold on to!! 8O The technician had to help me. Jeez.
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby THEGREEKFROMTHED » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:58 pm

Happy poet youre inspiring! Michelle don may not have ccsvi but hes dumber than a box of rocks! But god is he a great athlete! The confusion for me, and yes to all of you i read the article, is once again all the ambiguity and vagueness. If not don its jeff. Jeff has had neck surgery and blown out three discs smokes like a feen and eats poisin basically. May be dumber than don and definately a.d.d for sure but MS? not even close. Id be willing to bet jeff has ccsvi the veins in his neck pop out like jack in the box and hes goofier than a three dollar bill. The thing is the guys i work with are real mens men. Roll up the sleeves hardcore partiers that are great athletes and have abused their bodies like u cant imagine. But no ms. None of em. I should have done drugs smoked anything that would have fit in a Zig zag and fallen off of rooftops. I bet id be walking! Next...btw how you doin michelle??!! Isnt it wonderful to be one of the chosen? Cece i like your thinking. Money talks bullshit walks!
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby blossom » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:26 pm

one shoe does not fit all--happy poet about said it all.

i think if these guys can get this up and going sooner not later we are gonna see some amazing things.

at least if something like this is ruled out "correctly" and honestly not hit and miss at least some that have been branded with these symptoms they call ms won't be walking out of a neuro.'s office with a bunch of drugs that have only ended up being a sure thing that you will be back for more drugs.

like anything the earlier you are treated the better chance of success. most of us older ones have developed all kinds of twist and turns in our spine due to the way we sit etc. so it is more of a challenge to get this fixed but we gotta try.

hopefully this attracts and opens the minds of the best of the best neurosurgeons etc. as they will be needed in some cases.
chiropractics has been around a long time and there have been those in the medical field who for a long time fluffed them off.

why do some with spurs or other horrible problems with the spine not develope into ms who knows. maybe just call them lucky.
but, with these findings and dr. flanagan's research and the symptoms i have--i want those suckers out of there and hopefully the rest of my spine is in tact enough to function ok.

and if you read the symptoms that can develope from stenosis and other spine issues---it sounds like a lot of us here. soooo!
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby THEGREEKFROMTHED » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:46 pm

True. At least it brings attention to the MS world thats what we need more of and that is exciting and hopeful :-D

It was eighty degrees here today and it kicked my ass. Sorry about all the rambling!
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Re: Major Diagnostic Breakthrough in Multiple Sclerosis Achi

Postby MrSuccess » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:09 pm

I don't think the inventor of the MRI is stuck for money. If this newest device and invention pays off in spades ....... I say Hooray . Let's not even go there .... all of the CCSVI pioneer doctors are worth every penny ...... and more.

For many .... the experience of having an MRI is harrowing. This new piece of equipment looks like a good solution to the problem of claustrophobia.

As for Trauma .... let me say this to the Greekfromthemed ..... I personally know TWO
90 year olds ..... that fall with regularity .... and bounce back up ..... unhurt in any way.

Some people are bullet-proof. Nobody knows why. They just are. A great many others , break their hips .... and quickly decline ...... and pass away.

To understand Trauma , I offer the following logic. Starting with .... there is NO SET FORMULA when it comes to Trauma. It comes UNEXPECTED and in various degrees.

To illustrate this ..... I would gather 100 people at random. All ages , both sex's. I would have 49 males and 51 females . One by one .... I would push each person down a long staircase . Some get pushed hard . Others hardly. Some from behind . Others from the side or front ....... but everyone get's no advance warning .

As can be imagined .... we have a vast variety of end results .

As the medical profession has recorded ..... in due time ...... 6 out of the 100 begin to appear with MS like symptoms . Of the six .... 4 are female ... 2 male.

Does trauma cause MS ?

I believe it does .



Mark my words ..........


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