dr dake vs dr reekers debate

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: dr dake vs dr reekers debate

Postby Cece » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:26 pm

Dr. Diana and Dr. Dake put the 'fun' in fundus....if this ends up adding evidence to the effects of venous congenstion in CCSVI in MS, then fundi are as fun as they can get.
When contemplating the possible association
between venous obstruction, blood-brain barrier
leakage, myelin destruction and immune
mechanisms responsible for the initiation of
MS, it is interesting to note that the retinal
nerve fibres are not myelinated in 99% of the
population.

We've discussed this before, but it is worth rereading, rethinking, and knowing. I even bolded it, it's that good. It's a blow to the autoimmune theory, since the retinal nerve fibres are being damaged in MS and they do not have myelin, so it cannot be an autoimmune attack against myelin that isn't there. But it looks exactly like what would be expected in CCSVI theory, as a consequence of venous congestion.
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Re: dr dake vs dr reekers debate

Postby Cece » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:30 pm

As CCSVI is just one of many potential considerations
that may fit as single pieces in a large
puzzle that ultimately influences the development
of MS in a particular individual, it is not
terribly troublesome at our level of disease un -
derstanding to allow that not all MS subjects
possess the identical predisposing conditions.

Yes! Who is troubled? We might not all have CCSVI, we might not all have had mono, we might not all have low levels of vitamin D, we might not all be smokers, but these things can still contribute to the development of MS even if they are not 100% in terms of specificity and sensitivity. The imaging studies have generally been imperfect, so we do not know the prevalence of CCSVI in MS, and I am inclined to think it may be very prevalent indeed, but I agree with Dr. Dake that it is not troubling if it is not 100%. What is troubling is if CCSVI research is not speeding along as fast as it can wisely go.
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Re: dr dake vs dr reekers debate

Postby Cece » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:31 pm

The specific contributing elements may be different
among MS patients and an individual’s
disease severity, tempo of progression,
symptoms and response to therapies may be
highly dependent on his/her collection of
characteristic factors.

Seems reasonable enough.
Not unlike the case of another disease – gastric
ulcers – whose aetiology was once “known”
until its pathogenesis was disruptively
redefined by a radical idea, not all patients
with Helicobacter pylori develop peptic ulcer
disease.

They don't?
Not all patients with CCSVI develop MS, if we trust BNAC's findings of healthy controls with CCSVI.
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Re: dr dake vs dr reekers debate

Postby Cece » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:35 pm

Similarly, not all individuals with
PSEN1, PSEN2, APP, or APOE develop Alzheimer’s
disease, and not all patients with MS have
retinal vein sheathing.

Not all people with the genetic mutation that limits the ability to use vitamin D develop MS, as Marie pointed out over on Facebook regarding that latest study, since there were parents with the mutation without disease.
There is a lot we do not
know about the pathogenesis of a great many
diseases and perhaps with MS, we currently
still face more questions than we have
answers.

I am hopeful that the discovery of CCSVI sets us, at long last, on the path toward the answers.
Let there be research....

A great article by Dr. Dake.
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Re: dr dake vs dr reekers debate

Postby MrSuccess » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:16 am

..... like most people , MrSuccess has over the years been amused and entertained by the comedy of the hit TV show, Seinfeld.

There was one episode that was quite telling ...... it apply's well to all we speak of here at TIMS ..... and CCSVI .

With apology's to die hard Seinfeld fans ....... I'll recount the story ... as best I can .

Somehow , the character " Kramer " ends up having his portrait painted and framed. It is then placed in a gallery for display. A wealthy couple - patrons of the Art's - stand looking at it . The dialogue went more or less this way ........

Woman : I see a great depth of soul. I see compassion. I see great intelligence in his eyes ......

Man: I see a brute. A ruffian . someone not to be trusted ....... I see evil itself ........



Lifes like that ......



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Re: dr dake vs dr reekers debate

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:05 pm

Here is the URL for the PDF of the article you are discussing. It goes directly to the download.

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/resear ... x?id=35006
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Re: dr dake vs dr reekers debate

Postby frodo » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:45 am

Well, thanks for all the time you have spent writing on this thread. Very interesting.

I think this link will work:

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/resear ... x?id=35006
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Re: dr dake vs dr reekers debate

Postby Cece » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:26 am

frodo wrote:Well, thanks for all the time you have spent writing on this thread. Very interesting.

I think this link will work:

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/resear ... x?id=35006

Lol, thanks. And thanks for the help with the link.
I have found that Dr. Dake generally has some very good insights about CCSVI.
I am finding some tension between the advice to everyone to read the research and the fact that the research is, at times, very dense and hard to read. Even an editorial type article like this can be dense, and I found it helpful to take it line by line.
I remember reading the research but not retaining everything I read. Then getting an education here and going back to the research and finding that I understood more of it now.
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