Face oedema ??

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Face oedema ??

Postby cervocuit » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:31 am

Have you seen this video of Dr Salvi who presents clinical manifestations of CCSVI ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Z1aZcsMdU

In this video, he claims that the face changes after angioplasty and oedema disappears, and shows this slide :

Image

Those pictures are clearly not comparables, because of many differences such as the position of the head and most of all the light. It looks like a TV shopping program that take people for idiots.

But it may be real. Does anybody has experimented this phenomenon ?
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby EJC » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:58 am

That looks more like a weightwatchers before and after than anything positively promoting CCSVI.
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby Cece » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:36 am

The angles aren't the same making it hard to assess changes in the face. Could it be due to an improvement in the autonomic system? Or more directly due to relief of venous congestion? For what it's worth, my face seems to be less swollen post-venoplasty. Less swelling in my left arm also.
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby cheerleader » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:40 am

Facial and neck edema is a sign of central venous stenosis---most often seen in superior vena cava syndrome. The site of blockage is more central than CCSVI.
It is due to the facial veins and jugular veins becoming backed-up and swollen, and is real.
http://www.nature.com/nrcardio/journal/ ... 50_F1.html

For those with lower jugular blockage, this edema may resolve with treatment. For many, the site of edema is happening inside the brain, and can't be visually detected. The distended veins are inside the skull. But it's real. Jeff's neck is slimmer now.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby cervocuit » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:20 pm

Ok for vena cava syndrome and perhaps CCSVI does the same but there is apparently 149 known conditions that can cause neck swelling, and not MS…
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/symptoms/ ... causes.htm
Why the association has it never been noticed if it can be seen on the face ?
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby Cece » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:37 pm

I would guess it would not be noticed if it had always been present. CCSVI is chronic so it is not as if a person's face is fine on Monday and swollen on Tuesday?
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby cheerleader » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:00 pm

vena cava syndrome is a lower blockage...there are no valves involved, so the jugular veins distend upriver, and the swelling is obvious in the face and neck.

In CCSVI, the jugular veins do not distend, and there are valves, as well as a fixed skull upriver. I would assume that this is why some swell, some do not, and it is not as obvious. Remember, we are talking about the brain receiving the brunt of the reflux, where cerebrospinal fluid levels change in response to edema.
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby cervocuit » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:21 am

Cece wrote:I would guess it would not be noticed if it had always been present. CCSVI is chronic so it is not as if a person's face is fine on Monday and swollen on Tuesday?
I would guess that doctors can make the difference between normal tissues and edema, especially on children if it is a congenital problem. Or perhaps it is very subtle, but the whole CCSVI theory seems to be very subtle…

cheerleader wrote:vena cava syndrome is a lower blockage...there are no valves involved, so the jugular veins distend upriver, and the swelling is obvious in the face and neck.
In CCSVI, the jugular veins do not distend, and there are valves, as well as a fixed skull upriver. I would assume that this is why some swell, some do not, and it is not as obvious. Remember, we are talking about the brain receiving the brunt of the reflux, where cerebrospinal fluid levels change in response to edema.
I don’t understand everything, but I thought that the problem was supposed to be hypoperfusion. There can be hypoperfusion without reflux.
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby cheerleader » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:00 am

right....hypoperfusion is the problem. Dr. Zamboni found reflux in the deep cerebral veins of most (not all) pwMS. If blood does not leave the brain in a timely manner or refluxes into the brain, blood does not enter the brain. The CNS is a closed loop system, the skull is fixed, CSF levels adjust. I suggest reading Dr. Trev. Tucker's abstract to understand how venous hypertension and reflux can create hypoperfusion and hypoxia. There really is no simple way to explain it, other than read the science.

http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/artic ... 2/abstract
(copy and paste the link in your browser...the hyperlink didn't work for me)
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Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby cervocuit » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:11 am

Well it’s not yet science, it’s scientific hypothesis. And there has 2 diffenrent in this paper. First is hypoxia which kills oligodendrocytes, the other one is hypertension disrupting the BBB. And some times ago there was a third one which was toxic iron deposition. It’s a little confused for me.
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby cheerleader » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:21 am

cervocuit-
If it's confused for you, why bother worrying about it? There could be a few mechanisms continuing at the same time.
We know iron deposition in gray matter is part of MS progression. We know MS brains have hypoperfusion.
We also know the blood brain barrier is disrupted first, before lesions develop in MS.
These are scientific facts, well documented.
Off to enjoy the day with my vibrant and energetic hubby--that's our fact. :)
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby NHE » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:39 pm

cheerleader wrote:http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(11%2900459-2/abstract
(copy and paste the link in your browser...the hyperlink didn't work for me)


The URL has now been fixed. The forum's software has a problem with some characters in hyperlinks and in image links. In this case, it was the closing parenthesis. Please see site-support-f2/topic5284-15.html#p139024 for a fix for this problem.

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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby drsclafani » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:08 pm

cervocuit wrote:Have you seen this video of Dr Salvi who presents clinical manifestations of CCSVI ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Z1aZcsMdU

In this video, he claims that the face changes after angioplasty and oedema disappears, and shows this slide :

Image

Those pictures are clearly not comparables, because of many differences such as the position of the head and most of all the light. It looks like a TV shopping program that take people for idiots.

But it may be real. Does anybody has experimented this phenomenon ?



The main drainages of the face is via the facial vein, a branch of the internal jugular vein, through the external jugular vein and through the anterior jugular vein. If the internal jugular vein is occluded at the confluens near the chest, then the facial vein reverses its flow so that blood from the brain drains through the face into the external and anterior jugular veins. These veins are smaller so there is a expansion of the vascular spaces in the face. This results in engorgement of the face and in some a dusky skin color related to the deoxyhemoglobin in the red blood cells.

I have seen photographs of patients taken before treatment and one year later and there is clearly a difference in facial definition. Rounded contours become more well defined.

This is not surprising, really

The limited quality of the photographs do not prove the opposite. Believe it, or don't, it is rather logical and has precedent in other venous beds
Salvatore JA Sclafani MD
Patient contact: ccsviliberation@gmail.com
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Re: Face oedema ??

Postby cervocuit » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:58 am

Cheer
I would guess that your husband do better thanks to nutrition. My facts is that I was at the top of a relapse during angioplasty and nothing happens... because I expected nothing. I didn’t restenosed 1 year after. My azygous system is perfect and I have 3 lesions in spine. I also do better thanks to nutrition and the time passing by.
Dr S
I don’t doubt that blocked veins leads to swollen face. As you said it’s logical. And I don’t doubt that it’s usefull to treat that. But I doubt it has something to do with the MS. You said it happens when vein is occluded at the confluens near the chest. Aren’t the valves at this place ? I read that CCSVI was all about the valves so every MS patient should have swollen faces ?
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Face oedema is evidence ??

Postby MarkW » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:10 am

Old friends tell me that I look like I did years ago. Other people say my facial appearance has changed since my two stage de-stenosis. Not evidence just my story.
MarkW

PS Please do not expect firm evidence at this time. Scientists will discover more and change the explanation with time.
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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