Nature of Things

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: Nature of Things

Postby erinc14 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:09 am

i have to say i found the show disappointing . and i expected that. :sad:
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby DougL » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:24 am

erinc14 wrote:i have to say i found the show disappointing . and i expected that. :sad:


in what way? i agree it was far from perfect but would like to hear your opinion.
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby KateCW » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:55 am

I think the focus of the show was to discuss the power of Internet, social media, etc and how it is changing research practices and the doctor/patient relationship. More so than an in- depth CCSVI examination. I think they did a good job of illustrating that-patients networking, doing their own research, questioning the status quo, and so forth.

Who was the fellow that said stem cell research would suffer because o this? I would like to learn more about that- I am passionate in my belief in stem cells and I wonder what justification there was for that comment.
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby DougL » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:03 pm

KateCW wrote:IWho was the fellow that said stem cell research would suffer because o this? I would like to learn more about that- I am passionate in my belief in stem cells and I wonder what justification there was for that comment.


i saw that too. his comment was that money is being diverted into CCSVI research and that money has to come from somewhere - Stem Cell research being one place. he also said other EXCITING research will be affected.

my partner nearly smashed the TV over that comment.
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby munchkin » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:41 pm

I think he was from UofBC. The show did do a good job of discussing the media but I felt it fell short in actual CCSVI information. The neuro's haven't changed their tune and I really want to know why Dr. Murray(sp) is so sure that CCSVI is neither the cause or the cure when they aren't supporting any research.

Hearing them dismiss this is very disheartening. There is still a long way to go here in Canada. Except Sask. Way to go Preimer Wall.
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby Music » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:39 pm

It was Dr. Tony Traboulsee, a neuro and Medical Director at the UBC MS Clinic that said there would be less funds for stem cell research because of CCSVI research. Dr. Jock Murray was the one who stated that there was other “exciting work going on” and that CCSVI was being allocated ALL that attention. Hmmmmmm, back when I was diagnosed in ’96 I was told by my neuro that there also was “exciting” things happening in ms research at that time????

My brother just had a "relatively safe" operation for his A-Fib condition - all went awry!! Just about had to have open heart surgery. They do this procedure all the time. Have never had this happen before. Get my point?? CCSVI procedure has relatively low risks. There are always if, ands or buts in all procedures/treatments. We have seen and heard of the improvements so far.......perfecting the technique is what is needed?? And maybe some of us need a few treatments or something in conjunction??

People WILL participate in trials - what a silly thing to assume.

Aren't most if not all doctors collecting data from their procedues already?
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby Cece » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:12 pm

Music wrote:People WILL participate in trials - what a silly thing to assume.

There are 550+ people who signed up for a chance at 86 slots in the Saskatchewan/Siskin trial, which is a commitment-intense trial with a possibility of spending 2 years in the sham group. I think the trials will be ok if they ever get going already! Where is the university research that should be underway by now?

Is the show available online?
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby Music » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:37 pm

For those that have not seen the show or misunderstood my statement "People WILL participate in trials - what a silly thing to assume" - Dr. Jock Murray stated in the show that if the CCSVI procedure is available to everyone - legal everywhere - no one will participate in trials. I don't agree! Why would he assume that. Sorry for the misunderstanding - should have elaborated I guess.



Cece wrote:
Music wrote:People WILL participate in trials - what a silly thing to assume.

There are 550+ people who signed up for a chance at 86 slots in the Saskatchewan/Siskin trial, which is a commitment-intense trial with a possibility of spending 2 years in the sham group. I think the trials will be ok if they ever get going already! Where is the university research that should be underway by now?

Is the show available online?
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby Cece » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:55 pm

My fault for commenting on a show I have not watched yet. But CCSVI treatment is legal and available here in the US and there are Americans in Dr. Siskin's trial too. So Dr. Jock is still wrong. ;)
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby jackiejay » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:08 pm

Dr. Jock is grasping at straws......he's old school and can't get his head around something new, apparently.....wish he'd retire from his tv interview pursuits, sick of him......as for less money going to stem cell research...that seems lame, too....there's probably more money going into that than into CCSVI......I know it's beating a dead horse but there is lots of money available if the MS society was willing to pursue both of these avenues wholeheartedly....I know they say they are funding trials but we all know it's pittance compared to what they are capable of doing.....but that's old news.
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby PointsNorth » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:11 pm

I see on this site (below) the episode is available in part or in full altho I've not tried it. I watched last eve and I was pleasantly surprised. Even our GiCi appeared! I would've liked our neurologist Hubbard to have made an appearance. The neuros are clearly on the losing side of new media. I think Mubarak & Gaddafi underestimated the power of the 'Net too!

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episod ... rnet.html#
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby jackiejay » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:20 pm

.....quote from Dr. Jock last night..."if we offer this treatment to everyone and they all get better who will be left for the studies?"....WTF....hey, brainwave...if they all get better you won't need the studies!...Bingo.
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby PointsNorth » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:27 pm

I think Dr. J is secretly working for us! Quick, someone please promote him! . . . And the wagons circle . . .
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby erinc14 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:43 am

erinc14 wrote:i have to say i found the show disappointing . and i expected that. :sad:



it was the same talk that's been there from the beginning . why didn't they speak with sandy macdonald more instead of jock murry. or dr. hubbard? it's like they were trying to make the whole thing look iffy. and when they mentioned AGAIN how there's always been so-called cures for ms i rolled my eyes :roll:
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Re: Nature of Things

Postby 1eye » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:45 pm

The show was for Canadian consumption, so fewer non-Canadians appeared, and the like of Doc Jock and MS Freedman were there. I thought, as is the correct approach, they were damned with faint praise. Note that even the Saskatchewan government is now guilty of medical tourism, and doctors there have been caught providing after-care. I sent the following to "Nature of Things", and I am posting it here as an open letter:


Dear David Suzuki:

I enjoyed watching your February 9, 2012 broadcast of The Nature of Things. You have occasionally covered some topics I was less interested in, but I have been a fan since I wrote to you in the nineteen seventies, when you were on radio, the CBC "Quirks and Quarks" program. I was asking you back then, about the ozone layer. Now we have another connection, as I have found out my niece, Debbie, has done some work on your TV show.

My interest in this particular show was personal; I have had the procedure you were talking about, and actively pursued the issue since 2009, mainly in the Internet forum “ThisIsMS”. I am one of those advocates.

The honourable Dr. Murray is quite correct in saying it is a political issue now. It is partly so because of unusual pressure by Internet activists. He, with Dr. Freedman, and the other doctors and scientists expressing their skepticism, do not get the attention they deserve.

At the same time, the bits and bytes flashing momentarily on the Internet are living on beyond all merit, and get echoed everywhere.

It was fine journalism. Especially when you captured on camera Dr. Murray repeating what he told a Federal Parliamentary subcommittee, that if we allow people to be treated, the research will suffer because the MS patients will no longer sign up for the studies. Why they would behave in this selfish manner is beyond me.

William Shakespeare gave Romans powerful oratory in the play Julius Caesar. Some modern critics, however, along with some modern actors, do not realize that, when his political speech says ‘The evil that men do lives after them’, etc., wily Marc Anthony is using an oratorical device: Irony. He is sarcastic. He says the exact opposite of what he means. He comes not to bury this Italian king, but to praise him. Thank goodness none of our politicians has his guile.

Kirsty Duncan, who represents Etobicoke for the Liberal Party, has spent countless hours trying to light a fire under the anti-inflammatory Stephen Harper, the Canadian Institute for Health Research, and anybody else who would listen. She went to medical and scientific meetings, read many scientific papers, had a scientific subcommittee that heard from the MS society, neurologists, and surgeons such as Dr. Zamboni, Dr. Simka, and Dr. MacDonald. She authored hundreds of very pertinent questions to Parliament, none of which have been answered by two Harper governments. She held a long multi-party emergency debate on CCSVI in MS. She has hosted breakfast meetings with scientists, senators, and house members of all stripes. She has a private member's bill in the house, and another in the senate. She had as much to do with Canadians making progress against CCSVI as did the Internet. All that can be read in Hansard.

Long live the CBC. Long live The Nature of Things.

1eye
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