Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby Billmeik » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:26 pm

http://www.vrh2.com/pics/putnam.pdf

a librarian friend of mine scanned it. Don't tell anyone.
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Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby Kloklo86 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:44 pm

Hi guys this is my first post so hello! I'm currently going throughout the rigmarole of diagnosis (blurgh!!)

Had a quick read through this thread, as this topic is very interesting, can't see anyone has addressed this point I'm going to raise and please don't anyone get upset I'm not dismissing this theory as im obviously no expert.

Don't get too down hearted with a study because for me that really doesn't surprise me that the study shows that CCVI doesn't 'Cause' MS. Cause and effect relationships are very hard to establish for one and secondly CCVI may easily be a result of MS as inflammation (which as you know is what MS is) causes sticky blood and i guess this could then cause the CCVI? (again this is just me thinking out loud) it's natural to want to find the most effective cures but healthy scepticism is definitely needed and I'm sure this is why some of your neuros seem resistant to this idea.

Thoughts, views and any pointers to more research on this are much appreiciated :)
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Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby THEGREEKFROMTHED » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:07 pm

Geniuses! These guys are amazing! What a fucking waste of
Time and money!
Excuse me while I go eat some cheese and leave my shit all over the floor.

www.thegreekfromdetroit.com
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Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby Cece » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:05 pm

Kloklo86 wrote:Don't get too down hearted with a study because for me that really doesn't surprise me that the study shows that CCVI doesn't 'Cause' MS. Cause and effect relationships are very hard to establish for one and secondly CCVI may easily be a result of MS as inflammation (which as you know is what MS is) causes sticky blood and i guess this could then cause the CCVI? (again this is just me thinking out loud) it's natural to want to find the most effective cures but healthy scepticism is definitely needed and I'm sure this is why some of your neuros seem resistant to this idea.

Thoughts, views and any pointers to more research on this are much appreiciated :)

Welcome to the forum.
What frustrates me is when researchers get caught up on the cause-and-effect question, but what matters more is if treating people for CCSVI will help.

We've heard that the jugular veins do not show signs of inflammation damage, I can't remember if there is anything in the medical literature stating that. Often what is seen is intraluminal congenital abnormalities within the veins, meaning that it is not the vein itself that is stenosed but something within the vein such as a bad valve is blocking the flow, and that appears to have formed before birth, which would predate the MS. Valves with long fixed leaflets, malformed. Hypoplastic veins, never grew up.

As for research, start with google scholar, and type in CCSVI! There's a lot of positive and negative and imaging studies and opinion pieces in there, but there aren't yet any randomized controlled trials. Two such trials are underway (Dr. Siskin's in Albany and Dr. Zamboni's in Italy). There appears to be evidence of an association between CCSVI and MS.

I particularly like Dr. Fox's autopsy research, after all the confusion with the imaging studies, since intraluminal abnormalities in veins have turned out to be difficult to image from outside of the vein. So the autopsy research can look at real veins and whether these abnormalities were really there or not. (Spoiler alert: they were really there.) :)
http://registration.akm.ch/einsicht.php ... KEN_ID=900
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Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby MarkW » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:17 am

Cece wrote:
Kloklo86 wrote:Don't get too down hearted with a study because for me that really doesn't surprise me that the study shows that CCVI doesn't 'Cause' MS. Cause and effect relationships are very hard to establish for one and secondly CCVI may easily be a result of MS as inflammation (which as you know is what MS is) causes sticky blood and i guess this could then cause the CCVI? (again this is just me thinking out loud) it's natural to want to find the most effective cures but healthy scepticism is definitely needed and I'm sure this is why some of your neuros seem resistant to this idea.
Thoughts, views and any pointers to more research on this are much appreiciated :)

Welcome to the forum.
What frustrates me is when researchers get caught up on the cause-and-effect question, but what matters more is if treating people for CCSVI will help.


Welcome Kloklo86. I agree with Cece's comment. Mice do not get MS so CCSVI syndrome will not cause MS in mice. Lots of MS research falls into such traps.
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby Cece » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:05 am

drsclafani wrote:
squiffy2 wrote:Image

Mice that have their jugular veins ligated to simulate CCSVI do not develop any brain inflammation or demyelination, suggesting yet again that ‘veinous insufficiency’ does not cause multiple sclerosis.

Researchers from Harvard Medical School in the US took 20 mice, ligated both jugular veins and observed them for six months.

Fifteen control mice were given a sham ligation procedure and another eight were induced with experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis as negative controls.

Despite CT venography confirming the ligation produced hemodynamic changes, MRI demonstrated there were no signs of blood-brain barrier breakdown or neuroinflammation.

In addition, cytometry and histopathology showed ligation didn’t result in any increase in inflammatory cell populations or demyelination.

Moreover, no clinical signs were observed in any of the ligated mice.... Read More - http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseact ... ageid/2944


I concede.
This data is just overwhelming. This evidence gives us reason to pack up and go home.

I am going to throw away all my catheters and use my balloons for my grandson's birthday party.

On the other hand.... it took me two minutes to find out shockingly that the mouse brain IS DIFFERENT FROM THE human brain. NOt to mention that we don't even look like mice (any longer) and we stopped acting like mice sometime around 2007

The cerebral venous drainage of the mouse is not like that of the human. The major vein that drains the mouse intracranial circulation, is the retroglenoid vein that is a continuation of the transverse sinuses. It does not even exist in humans except as a rare anomaly. The internal jugular veins and the vertebral veins are not the major output.

Is this published in a journal? if so, which journal published this. what are the affiliations of the authors? who sponsored this research

read below...

Image

Early April Fools


And here is new research on extracranial drainage of pigs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23348984

The majority of the cerebral blood flow in the pig appears to drain through the VVVP. Flow through the IJV comprised a nondominant component.

To correctly do animal research, the dominant drainage would need to be ligated. In us, that is the internal jugular veins. In pigs, it is the ventral vertebral venous plexus. In mice, it is the retroglenoid vein, if Dr. Sclafani's information is as correct as it appears.

This pig research came from Detroit Wayne University, same as Dr. Haacke. Hey! Dr. Haacke is even listed last among the authors. The obvious next step is to ligate pig VVVPs and see what happens neurologically.
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Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby cheerleader » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:30 pm

Cece wrote:And here is new research on extracranial drainage of pigs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23348984

The majority of the cerebral blood flow in the pig appears to drain through the VVVP. Flow through the IJV comprised a nondominant component.

To correctly do animal research, the dominant drainage would need to be ligated. In us, that is the internal jugular veins. In pigs, it is the ventral vertebral venous plexus. In mice, it is the retroglenoid vein, if Dr. Sclafani's information is as correct as it appears.

This pig research came from Detroit Wayne University, same as Dr. Haacke. Hey! Dr. Haacke is even listed last among the authors. The obvious next step is to ligate pig VVVPs and see what happens neurologically.


thanks for that, Cece! Great news from a great researcher-
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby CureOrBust » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:00 am

Yes, a great find.

While reading the above, it made me think of "Putnams dogs". Do dogs have a more similar flow pattern to humans?
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Re: Study indicates CCSVI does not cause 'MS' in mice

Postby Cece » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:33 pm

CureOrBust wrote:Yes, a great find.

While reading the above, it made me think of "Putnams dogs". Do dogs have a more similar flow pattern to humans?

Start on page 33 of the following http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/availa ... 012805.pdf
Some heavy reading on the extracranial venous drainage of dogs.
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