CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby vesta » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:58 am

I wonder how long it will take for the CCSVI definition and treatment for MS
to be recognized, how many deaths? The resistance of the Neurology - AutoImmune Big Pharma drug complex is a blatant example of the Semmelweis Reflex - "a metaphor for the reflex like tendancy to reject new evidence or new knowledge because it contradicts established norms, beliefs or paradigms." Better yet try Dr.Timothy Leary's definition in The Game of Life "Mob behavior found among primates and larval hominids on undeveloped planets, in which a discovery of important scientific fact is punished."( Quotes from Wikipedia) It took at least 20 years for Doctors to admit they should disinfect their hands before administering to their patients. I don't have 20 years to waste, do you? Here's the story of Ignaz Semmelweis, father of antisepsis. (mostly from Wikipedia)

On July 1, 1846 the Hungarian Physician Ignaz Semmelweis began work as Chief Residant in the First Obstetrical Clinic of Vienna General Hospital. This clinic was one of two created in Vienna to offer free obstetrical services as part of a civilizing European movement to stop the practice of infanticide of illegitimate births. (Well, the free clinics were also used to train Doctors and mid-wives.) Dr. Semmelweis noticed that in the the second clinic reserved for the training of midwives, the death rate from childbed fever was less than 4% whereas in his First Clinic reserved for the training of Doctors, the death rate was more than 10%. Poor women preferred giving birth in the street to the possible death sentence of being treated by a Doctor in the First Clinic. Dr. Semmelweis observed that the only difference between the two clinics was that the medical students praticed autopsies in the morgue before attending a woman in labour. He hypothesized that the students carried invisible "cadaverous particles" on their hands from the autopsy to the patients. He instituted a policy of disinfecting hands (and eventually instruments) with chlorinated lime (calcium hypochlorate or chlorine bleach) before attending to a woman giving birth. The death rate in the First Clinic dropped by 90% to resemble that in the mid-wives clinic. In April 1847 the death rate stood at 18.3%, mid May 2.2%, July 1.2%, August 1.9 % and by 1848 2 months passed with no deaths.
While today it seems obvious that one should disinfect one's hands and instruments before attending to a woman in labour, at the time his suggestion that the Doctors themselves were killing their patients outraged his colleagues. They were gentlemen and professionals, how dare he suggest they had "dirty" hands in need of washing. (Surgeons at the time actually wore blood encrusted aprons while working and took pride in that "good old surgical stink".) While the benefits of his disinfecting policy were confirmed repeatedly through statistical analysis, it was thought there was no scientific basis for his findings since he could offer no acceptable explanation. Sound familiar? The world would have to wait 20 years for Louis Pasteur's germ theory of disease and in the meantime women died unnecessarily. Though everwhere Dr. Semmelweis instituted his disinfecting policy the death rate dropped, he was considered a dangerous radical and eventually lost his last posting in Budapest. (After leaving the replacement physician returned to the old ways and the death rate climbed dramatically as one might expect.) In 1858 Dr. Semmelweis published "The Etiology of Childbed Fever". He wrote Open Letters of desperate fury against the authorities who rejected his ideas. In August 1865 he was lured into an insane asylum under a false pretence and when he realized he was about to be admitted as insane himself, he tried to flee. The guards beat him and two weeks later he died of septicemia age 47. He died a rejected and forgotten man just at the moment that Louis Pasteur confirmed the germ theory of disease with his triumphal Sorbonne lecture in 1864 against the idea of "spontaneous generation". August 1865 the same month as Dr. Semmelweis' death, Joseph Lister treated a boy's wounds using carbolic acid (phenol) to prevent "supperation", and in August 1867 Lister read his famous paper Antiseptic Principle of the Practice of Surgery to launch the practice of antiseptic surgery.
Ignaz Semmelweis is now honored in his native Hungary, and recognized worldwide as the "father of modern antisepsis".
I believe it is the Semmelweis reflex at work now in the refusal to recognize CCSVI - Multiple Sclerosis as primarily a blood circulation disorder.
(Most of this material and quotes taken from Wikipedia)
Taken from MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby drsclafani » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:37 am

vesta wrote:I wonder how long it will take for the CCSVI definition and treatment for MS
to be recognized, how many deaths? .... It took at least 20 years for Doctors to admit they should disinfect their hands before administering to their patients. I don't have 20 years to waste, do you? ....
While today it seems obvious that one should disinfect one's hands and instruments before attending to a woman in labour, at the time his suggestion that the Doctors themselves were killing their patients outraged his colleagues. They were gentlemen and professionals, ....


Yes, Vesta, this seems quite shocking and semmelweis did make this great contribution. Yet, even today, surveys still show that some health care professionals STILL do not wash their hands between patients. At my former hospital, we encouraged patients to ask their doctor if they had washed their hands before they allowed them to touch patients. It is starting to improve, but old habits really die hard.

Indeed, look at the following photograph that I took at Komombo temple in Egypt, purported to be the oldest existing ruin of a medical clinic. The picture shows the Egyptian birthing facility.

Image

A points to the birthing stools.
B shows the books, medicines, instruments used during birthing
D shows the bath for the newborn
C points to the hand washing bowl used by the midwives and doctors

Semmelweis was actually RE-INVENTING something practiced by the ancient Egyptians several thousand years ago.

Sort of like Putnam, Schelling, and Zamboni rediscovering the visions of Charcot 149 years ago.

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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby 1eye » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:46 pm

I noticed while in hospital, shortly after the SARS outbreak, that most often, the stethoscope and blood pressure cuff are not sterilized, but passed from patient to patient as if they too were protected from every germ. No wonder we have C-difficile, and all the other hospital-borne infections. Neither patients nor their families go from bedside to bedside. A lot of other people do. When I am next in hospital, I plan to bring my own disinfection station.

I was pleased to see my new GP has no magazines. I don't want to go overboard, but some things are obvious.
Last edited by 1eye on Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby drsclafani » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:54 am

1eye wrote:I noticed while in hospital, shortly after the SARS outbreak, that most often, the stethoscope and blood pressure cuff are not sterilized, but passed from patient to patient as if they too were protected from every germ. No wonder we have C-difficile, and all the other hospital-bone infections. Neither patients nor their families go from bedside to bedside. A lot of other people do. When I am next in hospital, I plan to bring my own disinfection station.

I was pleased to see my new GP has no magazines. I don't want to go overboard, but some things are obvious.

That seems overboard to me. We don't want illiterate patients. Dorknobs cannot be completely eliminated. We dee patients to come through the door. Hands are the major transmission. We still need them. Hand cleansing solutions are more practical.
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby 1eye » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:30 am

I guess you never saw the state of my doctor's magazine pile, now retired. I saw similar ones in the hospital. Hand cleansing works, and that GP's office has both no magazines and alcohol-based hand cleaning stations. It's just that the reason many people go to the doctor and congregate coughing at each other in his or her office is because they are, some of them contagiously, sick. I wouldn't want them to become illiterate either. In libraries, or lawyer's offices, or welfare lines, they are on their own, but I do think sometimes there should always be hand cleaner available.

I kind of like doorknobs, though I have met some I could have done without :-)
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby drsclafani » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:35 am

1eye wrote:I guess you never saw the state of my doctor's magazine pile, now retired. I saw similar ones in the hospital. Hand cleansing works, and that GP's office has both no magazines and alcohol-based hand cleaning stations. It's just that the reason many people go to the doctor and congregate coughing at each other in his or her office is because they are, some of them contagiously, sick. I wouldn't want them to become illiterate either. In libraries, or lawyer's offices, or welfare lines, they are on their own, but I do think sometimes there should always be hand cleaner available.

I kind of like doorknobs, though I have met some I could have done without :-)

They should have surgical masks sitting at the receoption desk for patients with upper respiratory colds
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby Cece » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:11 pm

Taking kids to the doctor for a well child's check-up was always fraught with risk. They'd bring home an illness that would knock them out for a few days and me out for two weeks. One odd improvement after my CCSVI treatment is that while I still catch colds, I only get a fraction as sick from them as I used to.

Yes to hand-washing and Purell and surgical masks and ancient Egyptians and automatic opening doors. :)

Vesta, this definition that you gave
"a metaphor for the reflex like tendancy to reject new evidence or new knowledge because it contradicts established norms, beliefs or paradigms"
is an apt description of what we've seen from doctors (mainly neurologists) who have dismissed CCSVI without even attempting to understand CCSVI. I expect this to change as evidence continues to come in but change has been slow. What kills me is that, for those of us for whom CCSVI treatment works, it really really works. There are so many people who could benefit from this if we can get it to them.
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby esta » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:06 pm

I can't help it, but I just have to say, if our immune systems are up to snuff, the passing of germs from magazines shouldn't be a problem in doctor's offices. But that's only my point of view. I'd spend more time keeping it healthy. This is only in regards to the doctor's office conversation.
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby 1eye » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:21 pm

esta wrote:I can't help it, but I just have to say, if our immune systems are up to snuff, the passing of germs from magazines shouldn't be a problem in doctor's offices. But that's only my point of view. I'd spend more time keeping it healthy. This is only in regards to the doctor's office conversation.
Just depends what snuff is. George Carlin believed in swimming in raw sewage, to "temper" the immune system. But doorknobs of doctors' offices are good too, depending on today's clientele. Just don't forget to visit the public facilities afterward. Anybody ever notice that after you have washed and dried your hands, you immediately have to put them on an icky doorknob, to get out? Keeps those white cells busy...





















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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby drsclafani » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:58 pm

1eye wrote:
esta wrote:I can't help it, but I just have to say, if our immune systems are up to snuff, the passing of germs from magazines shouldn't be a problem in doctor's offices. But that's only my point of view. I'd spend more time keeping it healthy. This is only in regards to the doctor's office conversation.
Just depends what snuff is. George Carlin believed in swimming in raw sewage, to "temper" the immune system. But doorknobs of doctors' offices are good too, depending on today's clientele. Just don't forget to visit the public facilities afterward. Anybody ever notice that after you have washed and dried your hands, you immediately have to put them on an icky doorknob, to get out? Keeps those white cells busy...
.


Actually, metal is fairly difficult for bacteria to cultivate. Hands are the most serious culprit.

worse in the bathroom is the hand blower which circulates the bad guys up into the air.
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby PointsNorth » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:10 pm

Sorry, I must weigh-in here. Started taking ZINC this past year. No colds this past Fall/winter/Spring. First time in decades that I didn't get a cold. You heard it here first. Cheap. I would advise that one should avoid taking close to other meds. I've since noticed that products like ColdX etc. contain zinc.

Credit goes to jimmylegs for making this known to me. Also, I think it was mentioned that pwMS are low in zinc.
Albany 2010. Brooklyn 2011
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby HappyPoet » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:24 pm

Hi DrS, A couple yrs ago, three NYS legislators from NYC submitted a bill that would prevent doctors from wearing ties due to germs (short-sleeve polo/golf shirts were suggested to become the new standard), but the bill didn't have enough support to make it out of committee. Legislators said they would try again, but I haven't heard anything more--DrS, have you heard anything? Your thoughts?
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby blossom » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:36 pm

hi dr. sclafani, you may be aware of this use of copper. i ran a scrap yard for yrs. so always watching what metals were being used for then and the future. i was aware of this way back was gonna invest but unfortunatly this thing someone named ms invested in me and i kinda got side tracked a tad. now of course the price of copper with china buying the bulk is way up there. but, infections cost us a lot and many their lives.
i took my own clorox wipes to our hosp. some things i've seen--and lets not even get started about the bedside phones etc. it can be scarey. anyway, this is a long read for those interested. you can find other articles on copper and infections.





Copper door handles and taps kill 95% of superbugs in hospitals
By Fiona Macrae
UPDATED: 20:34 EST, 28 October 2008

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..

Hope: Copper taps, toilet seats and push plates on doors all but eliminated common bugs, the study found
Making door handles, taps and light switches from copper could help the country beat superbugs, scientists say.
A study found that copper fittings rapidly killed bugs on hospital wards, succeeding where other infection control measures failed.
In the trial at Selly Oak hospital, in Birmingham, copper taps, toilet seats and push plates on doors all but eliminated common bugs.
It is thought the metal 'suffocates' germs, preventing them breathing. It may also stop them from feeding and destroy their DNA.
Lab tests show that the metal kills off the deadly MRSA and C difficile superbugs.
It also kills other dangerous germs, including the flu virus and the E coli food poisoning bug.
Although the number of cases of MRSA and C difficile is falling, the two bugs still claim thousands of lives a year.
During the ten-week trial on a medical ward, a set of taps, a lavatory seat and a push plate on an entrance door were replaced with copper versions. They were swabbed twice a day for bugs and the results compared with a traditional tap, lavatory seat and push plate elsewhere in the ward.
The copper items had up to 95 per cent fewer bugs on their surface whenever they were tested, a U.S. conference on antibiotics heard yesterday.
Professor Tom Elliott, the lead researcher and a consultant microbiologist at the hospital, said: 'The findings of 90 to 95 per cent killing of those organisms, even after a busy day on a medical ward with items being touched by numerous people, is remarkable.
'I have been a consultant microbiologist for several decades. This is the first time I have seen anything like copper in terms of the effect it will have in the environment.
'It may well offer us another mechanism for trying to defeat the spread of infection.'
Researcher Professor Peter Lambert, of Aston University, Birmingham, said: 'The numbers decreased always on copper but not on the steel surfaces.'
If further hospital-based trials prove as successful, the researchers would like copper fixtures and fittings installed in hospitals around the country.
Doorknobs, taps, light switches, toilet seats and handles and bathroom 'grab rails' could all be ripped out and replaced with copper versions.

Making door handles, taps and light switches from copper could help the country beat superbugs, scientists say

Although it is usually thought to be an expensive metal, copper is actually a similar price to stainless steel, the researchers said. Nursing homes and even our houses could also benefit from the metal's ability to wipe out dangerous bugs.
The healing power of copper has been recognised for thousands of years.
More than 4,000 years ago, the Egyptians used it to sterilise wounds and drinking water and the Aztecs treated skin conditions with the metal.
The ancient Greeks also knew of its benefits. Hippocrates, sometimes called 'the father of medicine', noted that it could be used to treat leg ulcers.
Today, copper is a common constituent in medicines including antiseptic and antifungal creams. It is also believed to have anti-inflammatory properties. Many of those with arthritis wear copper bangles.
Although they provide relief to many, there is no scientific evidence that they work.
Copper is present in our diet in trace amounts and plays an important role in the formation of red blood cells and in keeping our blood vessels, nerves and bones healthy


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... z22jQev7JY
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby blossom » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:43 pm

poet, so true, would be a good law passed everywhere. i've seen the "tie swab" . not a good thing.
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Re: CCSVI MS and the Semmelweis Reflex

Postby tiltawhirl » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:28 am

1eye wrote:
esta wrote:I can't help it, but I just have to say, if our immune systems are up to snuff, the passing of germs from magazines shouldn't be a problem in doctor's offices. But that's only my point of view. I'd spend more time keeping it healthy. This is only in regards to the doctor's office conversation.
Just depends what snuff is. George Carlin believed in swimming in raw sewage, to "temper" the immune system. But doorknobs of doctors' offices are good too, depending on today's clientele. Just don't forget to visit the public facilities afterward. Anybody ever notice that after you have washed and dried your hands, you immediately have to put them on an icky doorknob, to get out? Keeps those white cells busy....


I am slightly neurotic with my public toilet methodology myself. :smile:
Use the toilet, wash hands post-use, grab paper towels to dry hands then use that towel to shut off the taps and open the door. Drop used towel into bin as I leave. And like you 1eye, I am mortified with any pile of magazines at a Drs office and stare at them like plague incarnate. :lol:

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