'Glymphatic System' and CSF

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby MarkW » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:15 am

Hello Lena-g,
Yes the glymphatic research was done on mice and Putman's work on dogs. Another interesting point is that the images show the glymphatic system joining a artery. My point is simple and I was agreeing with Cheer - please do not make quick conclusions from this research, give time for the research to develop.
MarkW

lena-g wrote:
MarkW wrote:The first point to note on this research is that it was performed on mice, remember mice do not develop MS.
MarkW


Hello everyone! (I read every day, and it’s thanks to Thisisms that I discovered CCSVI)
Allow me to intervene : because
I think Mark W meant that the study "glymphatic" was done on mice, and did not speak Putnam ... if I understood correctly???
Nedergaard's team …. The team made the findings in mice, whose brains are remarkably similar to the human brain.

(Excuse my English, :oops: I'm French)

I find this very interesting study, and I agree with you, Joan:
Just thinking how incredible it is That thesis Researchers can see proof of Their theories, thanks to innovations in technology.

There has to hope that the doctors of different disciplines up their minds finally to cooperate ... And "thanks to innovations in technology!"

And a huge THANK YOU all of you for all information you share ...
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby lena-g » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:25 pm

Yes, I agree with you, Mark: wait and see!

However, this study is very very exciting and gets us hope!
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby cheerleader » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:07 pm

New research from the U of R on the glymphatic system. Yes, it is still in mice, but fascinating, nonetheless. And another connection to the importance of jugular venous return while the body is supine, and asleep.

A good night's rest may literally clear the mind. Using mice, researchers showed for the first time that the space between brain cells may increase during sleep, allowing the brain to flush out toxins that build up during waking hours. These results suggest a new role for sleep in health and disease. The study was funded by the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS), part of the NIH.

"Sleep changes the cellular structure of the brain. It appears to be a completely different state," said Maiken Nedergaard, M.D., D.M.Sc., co-director of the Center for Translational Neuromedicine at the University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, and a leader of the study.

For centuries, scientists and philosophers have wondered why people sleep and how it affects the brain. Only recently have scientists shown that sleep is important for storing memories. In this study, Dr. Nedergaard and her colleagues unexpectedly found that sleep may be also be the period when the brain cleanses itself of toxic molecules.

Their results, published in Science, show that during sleep a plumbing system called the glymphatic system may open, letting fluid flow rapidly through the brain. Dr. Nedergaard's lab recently discovered the glymphatic system helps control the flow of cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), a clear liquid surrounding the brain and spinal cord.

"It's as if Dr. Nedergaard and her colleagues have uncovered a network of hidden caves and these exciting results highlight the potential importance of the network in normal brain function," said Roderick Corriveau, Ph.D., a program director at NINDS.


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 101713.php

more on the BIG picture--sleep, CCSVI and jugular venous return:
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com/2013/10/s ... .html#more

cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby pairOdime » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:37 am

cheer, this fits perfectly with the link on the benefits of REM sleep....the connection to oligodentrocytes & myelin.

chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic22977.html

The Glymphatic System, REM sleep, CSF flow, venous return all support the CCSVI concept. Cerebral outflow obstructions disrupt the process....again, is all supports the CCSVI concept.

Concerning the removal of toxins from the brain via the glymphatic system, a dirty brain in one thing, but a dirty mind is something else completely :-)
It's a paradigm shift
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby cheerleader » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:22 am

pairOdime wrote:cheer, this fits perfectly with the link on the benefits of REM sleep....the connection to oligodentrocytes & myelin.

chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic22977.html

The Glymphatic System, REM sleep, CSF flow, venous return all support the CCSVI concept. Cerebral outflow obstructions disrupt the process....again, is all supports the CCSVI concept.

Concerning the removal of toxins from the brain via the glymphatic system, a dirty brain in one thing, but a dirty mind is something else completely :-)


Agreed, pair!!! And the sad fact is, many with MS have sleep problems--and miss out on that deep REM sleep that oxygenates, supports myelin, and cleanses the brain. Could this be why the jugular veins are so essential, and necessary when we are supine? Venoplasty and an opening of his 100% occluded left and 80% occluded right jugular veins created a healing virtuous cycle for Jeff. He sleeps better (no spasms or apnea), he dreams again, he wakes refreshed--and his gray matter has healed on MRI.
....and, at least, his brain is clean :)
cheer
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dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby pairOdime » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:45 am

http://www.exchangemagazine.com/morning ... 101414.htm

TED Talk link included at the above link to the info posted below.

The brain uses a quarter of the body's entire energy supply, yet only accounts for about two percent of the body's mass. So how does this unique organ receive and, perhaps more importantly, rid itself of vital nutrients? New research suggests it has to do with sleep.

Jeff Iliff is a neuroscientist who explores the unique functions of the brain.

Neuroscientist Jeff Iliff 's research follows two main paths. The first is the exploration of how the brain’s support cells, called glia, contribute to maintaining the proper environment for neuronal function and how their failure in conditions like vascular dementia, stroke, and traumatic brain injury leads to neurodegeneration. The second seeks to define the basic cellular mechanisms by which brain blood flow is coordinated up and down the vascular tree. Now an Assistant Professor of Anesthesiology and Perioperative Medicine at Oregon Health & Science University, Jeff was a part of a University of Rochester Medical Center team that discovered a brain cleansing system, which they dubbed the “glymphatic system.”

Here is the direct link to the TED Talk....
http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_iliff_one ... ht_s_sleep
It's a paradigm shift
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby 1eye » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:56 am

OK here is the other major clue in "MS". I don't dream. I have heard it said that one cannot survive without sleep/dreaming. Perhaps REM/dreaming is related to the thing we have been discussing in another thread. That thing is heat sensitivity. Now as far as I know (which isn't very far, since I was asleep at the time) I have never had the heat-shutdown when I was asleep. Coincidentally, when I am asleep, as much as they can, my jugulars are flowing. An interesting study might be to compare the total (unblocked) venous return capacity in square area and compare that to the total in healthy people. If that is done in an ordinary MRI, it will be lying down. The upright capacity/changes would also be interesting.

Anyway, the thing we now know is there is excessive oxygen in the "MS" brain, and likely a lot of oxidants. These may also be present during sleep and might be modifying this glymphatic cleaning, for the worse. The differing chemical environment might be related to the inability to dream. The mitochondrial oxygen-starvation might prevent some important cleaning function that is required for REM/dreaming.

My drainage using my collaterals instead of jugulars will be worse when I am asleep, because that is the time when my jugulars should be flowing. When upright I can get by without the capacity of my jugulars (they would normally be unused), but when asleep the extra capacity for drainage via jugulars will have to be carried instead by whatever replacement veins I have available. There might not be enough for the glymphatic drainage, and the pressure might be too high for it as well. In fact, the extra drainage, though unassisted by gravity, might be part of the reason this glymphatic drainage happens when prone.

None of this applies to mice, which are seldom upright. It's time for some upright MRI work, especially into the glymphatic system, if there can even be such a thing when upright...
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby 1eye » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:50 pm

I must add to this, given the work done by the team at Rochester University with Jeff Iliff et al (thanks pairOdime for the link to his TED talk), revealing that brain cleaning by CSF is most likely done while we are prone (asleep). That ties in with:
When upright I can get by without the capacity of my jugulars (they would normally be unused), but when asleep the extra capacity for drainage via jugulars will have to be carried instead by whatever replacement veins I have available. There might not be enough for the glymphatic drainage, and the pressure might be too high for it as well. In fact, the extra drainage, though unassisted by gravity, might be part of the reason this glymphatic drainage happens when prone.

So it really does sound as if that's why I don't dream: inadequate jugular drainage capacity. Even though collateral veins replace the missing jugular capacity when upright, when I go to sleep, there is not enough drainage to provide for the extra CSF used in my cleaning cycle.

I have a period of extra lucidity that happens just before dawn, if I wake up. If I don't, it does not persist through to when I do get up. Also, I can't say I never dream; just almost never, and when I do, it's during this same time: when if I were awake, I would be extra lucid.
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby 1eye » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:31 pm

Hi: I am posting this to tell you something, and to give the topic a bump instead of just editing the last one.

I found and revised my paper from 1977. I don't know if it has been disproved or improved, but the reason you may be interested is that I believe the inability of pw"MS" to use oxygen is a body-wide, global problem, not limited to the brain, and as such is a problem common to other organs, possibly in blood. I intend, if I can to repeat the experiment 37 years later, and find out:

    1. if I consume more or less fuel for the same work output as I did then (probably more, since I am probably 37 years less efficient)
    2. if I consume a lot more than I should for a person my age, doing the same

If I consume a lot more, perhaps it is because I cannot efficiently use what I consume. But this test will reveal that, and speculation can begin if I can do the test.

Anyway, you can read the paper at http://sullivanweb.me/pdfdocs/EffOnABicycle%20with%20graphs.pdf.
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby Cece » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:21 pm

1eye wrote: Anyway, you can read the paper at http://sullivanweb.me/pdfdocs/EffOnABicycle%20with%20graphs.pdf.

You've inspired me, 1eye. I am getting a Schwinn adult tricycle for Christmas. Three wheels are better than two. :)

Let us know how the experiment goes.
2. if I consume a lot more than I should for a person my age, doing the same

Do you have the data for a typical person of your age?
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Re: 'Glymphatic System' and CSF

Postby 1eye » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:02 pm

Cece wrote:
1eye wrote: Anyway, you can read the paper at http://sullivanweb.me/pdfdocs/EffOnABicycle%20with%20graphs.pdf.

You've inspired me, 1eye. I am getting a Schwinn adult tricycle for Christmas. Three wheels are better than two. :)

Let us know how the experiment goes.
2. if I consume a lot more than I should for a person my age, doing the same

Do you have the data for a typical person of your age?


No. I know there are commonly available charts for heart rate vs age and weight. Also the typical exercise bike lets you input your age and weight and gives you a different workout depending on that. Some of those machines also vary your workload depending on your heart rate. Needless to say a heck of a lot has changed in exercise bikes since 1977. I think bike speedometers should be able to update more than once every time the wheel goes around. I built an optical one that could, and it was much more fun to watch. Anyway, I figure the data probably does exist; I just haven't researched it. It's probably Googleable, if there is such a word.

The good thing is that I know I was operating at only 0.7 of the maximum heart rate for my age back in '77. Since I typically do 1/2 hour plus, once a week or so on either the trike or a NuStep machine, at level 8, and I was only doing level 6 when I had my heart attack, I figure I can handle the load for 20 minutes. I've even done 5 or so minutes at a time on a stand-up elliptical, without any problem.

Good news about the trike. You won't regret it. Just remember: keep your fingers on the brakes when going uphill, in case the chain falls off! :-)
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