Chinese theory and fluid circulation

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby vesta » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:02 am

Chiropractors believe that a misaligned Atlas bone can impede circulation of cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) leading to neurodegenerative diseases such as MS. This idea would seem to parallel the CCSVI theory of MS as a blood circulation vascular disease. The therapies which enhance blood circulation should also enhance circulation of the cerebrospinal fluid. Chiropractic as well as Osteopathy (as practiced in France) can adjust the actual physical structure of the back and neck. (Acupuncture can't do that alone.) I have recommended neck/back massage, acupuncture, self acupressure, osteopathy, kinesiology, chiropractic, and swimming to enhance blood circulation. All these activities should enhance circulation of the cerebrospinal fluid as well, but if the bones are misaligned they will need physical manipulation to get them in place. If a vein draining the CNS is blocked angioplasty will be required to open it.
It is interesting to note how the issues of vascular blood circulation and cerebrospinal fluid circulation converge in Chinese Medical theory (which seeks to enhance energy - "chi" - circulation in general.) The Bladder meridian begins in the inner eye socket, runs over the head down the neck and down the bands of muscles on the back to finish at the feet. The bladder/kidney meridians belong to the water element which rules fluid circulation, cold, north, winter, wet, fear, and ambition. Note how this element describes Northern Protestant Europe where MS is found in greatest numbers. The Meridians which begin on the head and run down the neck or back (gall bladder and bladder) are used to treat MS which makes sense if MS is caused essentially by problems with fluid circulation from the brain and spinal cord.
My treatment required De-Toxification and Kinesiology determined diet (more or less Paleo-Macrobiotic diet -Glutens and Dairy especially a problem)
Supplements (Mostly Standard Process)
Blood circulation or energy therapies such as acupuncture, daily self acupressure, swimming, kinesiology. Osteopathy or chiropractic for structural adjustment. In my own case I can feel the blood backing up into my brain when stressed and have found a simple neck massage (a minute will do) forcing blood down towards the heart will stop it. De-toxification and optimal nutrition serves 2 purposes: 1) Removes stress on the vascular system in order to reduce blood reflux and 2) heals damaged tissue. I definitely think one should try the "manual" option before the "medical" ie angioplasty. Actually people with MS can do alot to help themselves. If you can't visit some renowned chiropractor, find the nearest available and explain what you need. Try simple neck massage or self acupressure to stop an "attack" if you can feel the blood reflux. Buy a powerful vegetable juicer and begin to extract raw veggie juice to de-toxify. Some healers are better than others, but there is no one indispensable person. I myself think I have a blood reflux problem (CCSVI) but feel I can control it through "manual" treatments. Even so, every time I get upset and the blood backs up, a little damage is done so I will gradually lose function. Dr. Sclafani is doing excellent work to develop treatment for CCSVI and if I was younger I would doubtless consider angioplasty. I do use osteopathy (France) periodically to adjust my "skeleton". And I don't put up with stressful people like I used to.
More at MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby EJC » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:57 pm

Vesta, you would have hours if not days of fun talking with Dr Amir.

The big problem though when dealing with purveyors of what is still classed as "alternative" medicine, i.e. Chiro, Osteo and many other ic's and ologys is sorting the wheat from the chaff.

One thing often overlooked which many of the corrections is what's causing the misalignment to start with.
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby vesta » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:08 am

"Purveyor" is a rather pejorative way to describe "alternative" medicine. How about the "purveyors" of toxic drugs? Therapies which work for me help control the disease. Detoxification, Optimal Nutrition, Supplements, Self Acupressure any therapy which enhances blood circulation. Chiropractic has helped structural misalignment but I can't say it has helped stop the blood reflux. (In France I see Osteopaths rather than Chiropractors.) I've never seen a NUCCA specialist or Atlas Orthogonist.

As for "causes", how about this?

In Multiple Sclerosis blood vessels "deformed" by childhood
stress cannot accommodate the blood flow. The auto-immune response is secondary to the true cause of MS, a blood reflux which injures the brain and spinal cord. The origin of the reflux may be structural (CCSVI stenosis) as proposed by Professor Zamboni or it may be a "temporary" stress reaction to a toxic substance.

Let's re-think first causes. And then move on to real solutions.

Epidemiological studies on MS show that those who grow up close to the equator have less chance to develop MS than those living in latitudes closer to the poles. It is the latitude where one lives before age 15 that counts, not where one lives subsequently. It is therefore thought that the lack of sunlight – hence Vit D – is a factor in susceptibility to MS. Vit D is recommended for M.S. patients.

But perhaps a better explanation of the geographical factor is Winter Cold.

The shoulders and neck typically tense up under stress thus restricting circulation to and from the brain. Cold weather stiffens the muscles. Winters bring the body aches of colds and flus.

It is also said that MS patients tend to be high powered, ambitious people. Tensed up in other words. MS cases cluster in northern Europe and North Amerca. Let’s say growing up in a culturally demanding family environment (or in any case stressful) while subject to Cold weather and frequent colds and flus actually compresses and deforms the circulatory system in the child’s developing body.By the time he/she reaches age 15, the stunted blood vessels can no longer accommodate the blood flow. MS first appears in adolescents, seldom in children. Let’s compare the deformity to ancient Chinese footbinding where the tiny child’s foot cannot support the adult woman.

Food intolerances, especially to wheat and dairy products, can further compound the stress. The Neolithic agricultural revolution dates back not much more than 10,000 years, a blink of the eye in terms of biological evolution. Bowel problems are a sure sign of food “stress”.

And the disadvantage of being female. Between puberty and menopause at least two-thirds of MS patients are women. This implies that gynecological problems (including menstrual cramps and birth control pills) both stress and require "poisoning" treatment which impact negatively the vascular system. Perhaps monthly menstrual cramps in a growing girl actually "stunt" the circulatory system. Stress.

Maybe the real story behind MS is the damage to the blood vessels caused by growing up in a 1) driven, ambitious or otherwise stressful family environment compounded by 2) a climate of Cold winters which contribute to 3) frequent viral illnesses compounded by 4) an intolerance to the wheat and lactose of a Neolithic diet.

See MS Cure Enigmas.net for ideas of how to treat-heal-control MS.
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby EJC » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:55 am

OK I'll be more direct and obvious with the question.

How do I know one Chiropractor is better than another, how do I know if one is clueless and one isn't. That was point, not the theory of what they are doing.
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MS is multifactorial

Postby MarkW » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:39 am

vesta wrote:.......................parallel the CCSVI theory of MS as a blood circulation vascular disease. The therapies which enhance blood circulation should also enhance circulation of the cerebrospinal fluid. Chiropractic as well as Osteopathy (as practiced in France) can adjust the actual physical structure of the back and neck.

I encourage Vespa and everyone to read Prof Zamboni's published words on CCSVI syndrome. CCSVI is a factor in MS, not the cause of MS. Physical mis-alignment of necks or jaws may be a factor in some pwMS but they are not the cause of MS in everyone. I hope you will see the big picture of MS and not fall into the trap of thinking that MS has one cause.
MarkW
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Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby Cece » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:51 am

I think while there are ways to enhance circulation, CCSVI itself involves actual blockages within the veins, and there is no outside-the-vein way to treat that, that I am aware of.
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby vesta » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:10 am

The hypothesis of my paper is plausible and clear (that's where good science begins) but my main purpose is to expose MS as a blood circulation disorder (or perhaps fluid circulation in general as per Chinese Medical theory) and to provide treatment guidelines for MS patients based on my own 32 years' experience
I've decided to create a new vocabulary for Multiple Sclerosis since the current one is derived from the erroneous auto-immune theory, I believe there are four main types of MS –Congenital, Developmental, Toxic and Aging.

CONGENITAL: This idea is favoured by Phlebologists and Dr. Sclafani. However, it doesn’t account for the epidemiological variations in geography, culture or gender. However, obviously it can be one factor.
DEVELOPMENTAL; My beginning hypothesis was that stress (of many potential origins) damages the veins in the child's developing body so that once adult the veins can no longer accommodate the blood flow. Defects in the circulatory system impede if not outright block blood flow leading from the brain and spinal cord leading to MS "attacks" and subsequent paralysis. It is for this reason that MS first generally manifests during or after adolescence. Dr. Zamboni himself observed deformities in the veins in the back and neck of MS patients. These areas correspond to Acupuncture meridians which control blood/fluid circulation. One might object that Chinese Medical Theory is not “scientific”. It is an empirical knowledge based on thousands of years of observation. Sometimes science has to catch up with practice. Think of how drug companies are scouring the earth for plants used in folk medicine in search of therapeutic molecules.

TOXIC MS: The third type concerns a "temporary" stress reaction to a toxic substance such as aspartame. The reaction is "temporary" in the sense that once the toxin is removed, the MS symptoms disappear. There may be an overlap between type one and type two if a child's development is stressed due to a food intolerance - for example to glutens - or another toxin.

AGING MS :The fourth type develops with age. There is no reason why veins shouldn't harden and malfunction as a part of the aging process. When the valves in veins draining the central nervous system malfunction, blood backs up to injure the myelin sheath.

Toxic MS is most definitely curable once one has identified and eliminated the toxin. (Aspartame “MS” cases are an excellent example of a toxic substance which tenses up the fluid circulation sufficiently to create a blood reflux. Dr. Terry Wahls began her treatment by de-toxifying from the MS drugs which were poisoning her. Her recovery implies that her veins were not actually blocked, but tensed up enough to cause a reflux. Also, she stimulated her blood circulation by electrical stimulation of the bands of muscles on her back, in other words, the bladder meridian. Optimal Diet/Supplements serve two purposes. To prevent stress on the vascular system which might lead to blood reflux and 2) heal damaged tissue.

Developmental MS and Aging MS are more complicated problems. The veins need to be examined. In the past two years
Dr. Sclafani has perfected techniques for CCSVI endovascular therapies (to release venous blood circulation) using catheterization, venography, and ultravascular ultrasound. Work on stem cells may further enhance the viability of these therapies. Angioplasty may be the only solution if there is a serious vein malformation resistant to physical manipulation and/or exhibiting a definite occlusion.
(Reflect on this case for a minute. I met a Frenchwoman 15 years ago who reported that after an Ayervedic massage performed by several women in India she completely recovered. Her report resembles the testimony of those who leave their wheelchair behind after successful Angioplasty. This didn't make sense to me at the time, but now I realize that the massage must have opened the blood circulation. Unfortunately the recovery didn't last and once in France her health rapidly declined. She probably needed angioplasty to keep her veins/valves open since daily massage would be impractical. Unfortunately I can't find her. This case nonetheless implies that her veins were not entirely blocked. Maybe the valves were stiff and closed off the blood flow, especially under stress.)

Whatever the pathology, treatments to at least "control" the disease process can probably be developed. There are numerous options including massage, acupuncture, and TENS self acupressure treatment. I've never tried the self discipline of Yoga, but if Master practitioners can control their bodily functions, why not try to control the blood flow from the brain?

Note that on April 3, 2012 Dr. Sclafani observed
"Firstly, not all resistance to flow is caused by stenosis (narrowing) (of the vein).. Narrowing can be secondary to 1.hypoplasia,or failure to grow to proper size 2. extrinsic compression by a duplicated vein 3.transverse webs of tissue acting like a lid on the vein 4. or septum that divides the tube (jugular) into two smaller tubes 5. A diverticulum that compresses the vein 6. by valves that are stiff and do not open and close properly 7 valves made of several leaflets that end up fused together 8 valves that are located in abnormal locations."

He has seen this in his angioplasty patients which implies that they were identified as having structural problems in their veins before intervention (not necessarily true for all MS patients.) Two Doppler Sonograms revealed no abnormality in my case so I may not have a readily identifiable structural defect. Under stress I have the impression ALL the fluids in my body seize up. Perhaps the valves in the veins "freeze", or the vein simply compresses.
I'll call this the Flat Vein condition (no observable deformity) which shouldn't be treated with angioplasty. Rather, various physical manipulations or exercise can promote blood circulation, probably on a daily basis. (Massage, Self-Acupressure, Acupuncture, Chiropractic, Osteopathy, Swimming, etc)
The Twisted Vein might be susceptible to physical manipulation. (Veins are pliable.) If not angioplasty is probably in order.
With the Plugged Vein (Thrombosis) there is probably no alternative to angioplasty since the vein is outright blocked and blood struggles with difficulty to descend through "collateral' veins. This patient is doubtless the most severely afflicted. S/he will have to weigh carefully the possible benefits and risks, quality of life etc.. Until treatment can be obtained, the patient will need medications to treat the blood reflux and immune system reaction.
Now, one might ask, how do I know any of this? I don't. These are plausible hypotheses to be studied by those in a position to do so. But researchers need to change gears, they are barking up the wrong tree.
At present MS studies remind me of what is said about the 13th Century Scholastic School of theologians (e.g. Thomas Aquinas) who laboured over the question of how many angels could dance on the head of a pin (or point of a needle.) - good brainpower wasting time on an erroneous idea (or belief).
How would I characterize my own Multiple Sclerosis? Originally of Growth/Toxic origin with a Flat Vein condition. (Origin) Childhood stress coupled with food intolerances (toxic) which can be controlled (Treatment) through optimal nutrition as well as activites which enhance blood circulation. Aging has apparently weakened the valves allowing greater backflow.

Consider the following idea of how I think MS evolves.
Now that we know that MS is in fact a venous blood circulation disorder, I can imagine the stress being so extreme that it literally pushes the blood right back up into the brain and spinal cord, like a pressure cooker. If that one time extreme pressure experience is never repeated, chances are one can recover and never have a repeat.
Dr. Sclafani has observed that 85% of the vein narrowings in M.S. are in fact valve problems. Let’s say that each attack “blows” the valves. Eventually the valves weaken and fail, either causing a total vein obstruction, or an ongoing blood reflux, transforming the relapsing/remitting MS into various forms of progressive MS.

Mark I believe you relate your MS experience to Diabetes. I would place this in the “Toxic” form of MS, probably partly Developmental as well.
Cece: I don’t doubt that veins can be so damaged that angioplasty is necessary. But I believe there are intermediary “deformities” that can be treated manually or naturally. Veins are pliable and may collapse like a garden hose emptied of water or simply compress under stress pressure. Let’s not overlook Dr. Wahls’ experience (which in some ways was my own except I never took any MS drugs.)
Maybe I could benefit from angioplasty. But I’m not in bad enough shape to take the risk. I simply have to be ever vigilant.
Final note: I don’t see how a “double blind” study can account for all these variables.
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MS has MULTI FACTORS at its cause

Postby MarkW » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:04 am

vesta wrote:The hypothesis of my paper is plausible and clear (that's where good science begins) but my main purpose is to expose MS as a blood circulation disorder (or perhaps fluid circulation in general as per Chinese Medical theory)


Please read Prof Zamboni's published words on CCSVI syndrome. CCSVI is a factor in MS, not the cause of MS. The big picture of MS is that MS has MULTI FACTORS at its cause. Unfortunately your hypothosis is poor science as it does not take account of all of the evidence, that is were good science begins.
MarkW
(No experience of diabetes)
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Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby vesta » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Mark:
Sorry about the diabetes comment, I confused you with someone else. I don't pretend to know ALL the factors in MS. Do you? I'm looking for practical ideas to deal with the problem right now, and the blood or fluid reflux idea has allowed me to stop an "attack" by simply massaging the neck forcing the blood down towards the heart, and or doing an acupressure treatment or acupuncture of the meridians which control fluid circulation from the head/spine. Also I've resumed my non gluten diet which I never should have stopped. 150 years ago autopsies of MS patients revealed that brain damage clustered around the draining veins. So why has it taken so long to take that into account?
My main paper makes it clear that I believe the blood reflux can be due to structural factors -"CCSVI Dr Zamboni - OR toxic poisoning. (Note the OR) For instance, I don't believe Dr.Wahls has a structural stenosis/ Rather, life stress and food intolerances caused her first attacks and the MS drugs worsened her condition by poisoning her. To heal she de-toxified from the drugs and bad food and optimized her diet (and stimulated the bladder meridian on her back which enhances blood circulation). Toxins - like aspartame or amalgam mercury fillings, wheat for some, can stress the vascular system leading to a blood reflux. So I don't need you or Dr. Zamboni to tell me that CCSVI doesn't apply to all MS cases because I don't think it does. Stress pure and simple can cause the blood to back up. If someone has a serious occlusion or stenosis, it doubtless should be opened and until that can be done the patient probably needs MS drugs to minimize CNS damage.
But for those whose veins compress with toxicity, drugs are probably the worst thing to take. Sometimes science has to catch up with practice. Chinese Medicine is an empirical (sp?) practice based on thousands of years of observation. Think of how the drug companies scour the earth in search of molecules contained in folk remedy plants
See MS Cure Enigmas.net Vesta
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby Cece » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:17 pm

Did some posts get deleted here, or was that a different thread? I've been trying the massage-the-neck idea lately, thanks to vesta sharing her experience.
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MS is multifactorial

Postby MarkW » Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:26 am

vesta wrote:.... I don't pretend to know ALL the factors in MS. Do you?

No one knows all the factors which may be involved in causing MS. However, I know that when you theorise that MS is mainly caused by blood reflux or toxic poisoning you are vastly over simplyfying the disease. Please read this 31 page presentation:
http://www.systemsmodelbook.org/uploade ... -P1183.pdf
It is far better than most papers on the causes of MS but misses some areas (Vitamin D and its immune system control role is one example).

vesta wrote: I'm looking for practical ideas to deal with the problem right now, and the blood or fluid reflux idea has allowed me to stop an "attack"...

I fully support dealing with symptoms of MS and have tried many things which work for me but not everyone. I am cautious about neck massage (only gentle massage allowed) as it could compress the IJVs.
However, when you theorise about the cause of MS I will challenge this, if you do not paint the big picture (impossible currently).
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 10 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby HappyPoet » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:38 am

Hi guys... a few questions:

1. Because IJVs are closed when upright, is it correct that neck massage would only help, if it helps, when supine?
2. Other than hearing or feeling the swoosh of pulsatile tinnitus, how does one know or feel when blood is refluxing?
3. What is the mechanism that changes blood from draining through the VVs to draining through the IJVs and vice-versa?
4. Does CCSVI only happen 1/3 of the day, assuming IJVs are used only 8 hours/day (when asleep in the supine position)?

Thanks!
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby Cece » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:57 am

1. Because IJVs are closed when upright, is it correct that neck massage would only help, if it helps, when supine?

If it helps by relaxing muscles (and if there is blockage of the IJV due to tight muscles), that would help upright or supine. Not all IJVs are closed when upright; one of the Zamboni criteria is when we have jugulars that are more full when we are upright than when we are supine. Normally jugulars go down to 10% when upright, and for some of us, that 10% may still be an important outflow. I agree with MarkW about being gentle with the neck massage so as not to cause compression of the jugulars. A worst case scenario after a neck massage would be clotting! It is also not something I would do in the early weeks after venoplasty.
2. Other than hearing or feeling the swoosh of pulsatile tinnitus, how does one know or feel when blood is refluxing?

The pulsatile swoosh means the flow is going fast. This is not necessarily indicative of reflux.
Prior to my procedure, if I laid down on my left side, it would quickly bring on the cogfog and ill-feeling. I'm guessing that was due to posturally dependent venous congestion.
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Re: Chinese theory and fluid circulation

Postby HappyPoet » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:33 pm

Thanks very much, Cece. :) You know so much!
Always appreciate your answers.
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CSF circulation

Postby MarkW » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:52 am

Cece wrote:
1. Because IJVs are closed when upright, is it correct that neck massage would only help, if it helps, when supine?

If it helps by relaxing muscles (and if there is blockage of the IJV due to tight muscles), that would help upright or supine. Not all IJVs are closed when upright; one of the Zamboni criteria is when we have jugulars that are more full when we are upright than when we are supine. Normally jugulars go down to 10% when upright, and for some of us, that 10% may still be an important outflow. I agree with MarkW about being gentle with the neck massage so as not to cause compression of the jugulars. A worst case scenario after a neck massage would be clotting! It is also not something I would do in the early weeks after venoplasty.
2. Other than hearing or feeling the swoosh of pulsatile tinnitus, how does one know or feel when blood is refluxing?

The pulsatile swoosh means the flow is going fast. This is not necessarily indicative of reflux.
Prior to my procedure, if I laid down on my left side, it would quickly bring on the cogfog and ill-feeling. I'm guessing that was due to posturally dependent venous congestion.


Hello Cece,
Pleased that we agree - no deep massage of the neck. Your comments confirm how little medical science knows about the veins and IJVs, is it really 10% in everyone? Hopefully some researcher will measure the dimensions of the IJVs in daily life in pwCCSVI and others, not just upright and supine. A mobile neck collar should be technically possible.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 10 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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