Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Anonymoose » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:57 pm

Found a genetic factor...
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/sep2002/nichd-09.htm
Due to differences in the genes that control the HPA axis, however, other people may fail to have a strong enough response to a threat, while still others may over respond to even minor threats.

Over-response being overproduction of aldosterone (and cortisol) in reaction to stress triggered ACTH.

From same page
Beyond biological differences, the HPA axis also can alter its functioning in response to environmental influences. The HPA axis may permanently be altered as a result of extreme stress at any time during the life cycle — during adulthood, adolescence, early childhood, or even in the womb.

If there are major stresses in early childhood**, the HPA feedback loop becomes stronger and stronger with each new stressful experience. This results in an individual who, by adulthood, has an extremely sensitive stress circuit in place. In life threatening situations — such as life in an area torn by war — this exaggerated response would help an individual to survive. In contemporary society, however, it usually causes the individual to overreact hormonally to comparatively minor situations.


**Why just in childhood? Wouldn't this apply to any age??
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Ruthless67 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:21 pm

radically different product to fight autoimmune diseases like Crohn's Disease, Rheumatoid Arthritis and even Multiple Sclerosis.
Some more very interesting reading.


Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/7265952


http://ezinearticles.com/?Can-Being-Too ... id=7265952

Another reason that Crohn's and other autoimmune sufferers could be convinced to drink this stuff was offered by Coronado CEO Sandage saying, standard drug treatments for autoimmune disorders carry many risks to use "standard treatments for autoimmune disorders include inject able drugs that block a protein known as TNF (tumor necrosis factor). They include Amgen's Enbrel and Abbott's Humira. These depress the immune system and send its army of infection-fighting cells back to their barracks. They also raise the risk of serious infection, including tuberculosis, and some types of cancer". This is a big reason why patients with serious Crohn's conditions would choose the company's drug despite its radical departure from the normal medicines offered for years.
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:07 am

That was interesting. You try it first! lol
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Ruthless67 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:40 am

Hey Anonymoose, I'm not trying it either.....,lol. Damdest thing I’ve read so far. But I found it interesting and thought it belonged on this thread. The reading on here gets so heavy at times, it is always good to lighten it up once I awhile.

Like in an older TV commercial for a cereal, "Give it to Mikey, he will like it, he like everything."

That is a better idea, because the whole idea makes me squirm, lol. I'll stick with using Candida Cleanse followed up with ProBiotics to clean and reset my gut!!

I gave up on all Pharmacological MS drugs a few years back when my white blood cells were negatively effected and BEFORE I had any additional side effects or problems. I’ve also been following Cheerleader’s Endothelial Health and Maintenance program.
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:00 am

Lol! I thought of the Life cereal commercial too. Since I can remember that commercial, I prefer the word "classic" to older. :p. I think Mikey might have grown up to post his helminth experience on tims. Brave boy he is!
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby HappyPoet » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:43 am

Hi Anonymoose,

Your comment about dehydration caught my attention. I just read a 2006 post from a dysautonomia forum that says if one's aldosterone level is low, the adrenals will not retain sodium which can be a cause of chronic dehydration which can have negative neurological effects which can overlap with some "MS" symptoms. Have you looked into this angle of aldo yet? The topic of aldo and dehydration is very, very, very complicated, but I did read somewhere that when sodium levels are low during periods of dehydration, a high (normal?) potassium level is very dangerous.

I ask because I'm chronically unable to retain fluids no matter how much I drink, and I have chronically dry skin/lips (loss of elasticity), constant thirst and dry mouth, chronic low blood pressure, chronic constipation, and hard-to-find veins with very sluggish venous blood flow - blood draws are often impossible unless I drink 24-32 oz. of water immediately before each draw, but the effects don't last long because I soon pee each and every ounce of the water. Also, I have heavy fatigue, but this is probably due to a combination of factors in my case.

Related: I might ask DrS on his thread if he's seen any kind of venous drainage-related problems with the adrenal glands (on top of kidneys) like he's seen with the thyroid gland (in front of throat) when IJV drainage refluxes and overloads the thyroid veins which then compress the thyroid (iirc) and leads to symptoms. I wonder if maybe a blocked renal vein might cause backup problems of the adrenal glands which might alter aldo production leading to symptoms. I'll also ask my PCP for all related blood work but need to do some more aldo-dehydration research first.

Links to concise info on low aldo and dehydration:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/29525 ... l-fatigue/
Be sure to look through the long list of adrenal-related links (right side of each page).

http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/saliva-te ... l-hormones

Edit: Home testing for the adrenal glands is available here:
http://www.accesalabs.com/zrt?gclid=CJn ... 4Aodl3MACA
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:09 pm

Hi HappyPoet,

I hadn't looked at low aldosterone levels as everything I have read (I haven't read everything!) says that people with MS have high cortisol and aldosterone, not low. As for adrenal insufficiency, I think it might be possible but I don't think it's likely our chronically elevated levels are high enough to burn out our adrenals. Perhaps that's why no one pays attention to our cortisol/aldo levels. From the outside, they don't appear to be causing much trouble. I did some digging though because you made me curious. Here's what I found...

http://www.mdguidelines.com/aldosteronism
Aldosteronism may not cause symptoms that prompt an individual to see a physician. When symptoms are present, they relate directly to the actions of aldosterone. A low potassium level can cause overproduction of urine (polyuria), which results in excessive thirst (polydipsia) due to fluid loss. Too much potassium excreted in the urine causes tiredness, weakness, muscle cramps, muscle spasms, and headaches. Some individuals may experience heart palpitations, often described as a fluttering feeling in the chest. In severe cases, periods of paralysis or mood changes may be reported.

Sluggish blood flow? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842872/
All hypovolemic conditions are associated with a secondary reactive hyperaldosteronism by renin-angiotensin cascade activation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypovolemia
Hypovolemia can be recognized by tachycardia, diminished blood pressure,[8] and the absence of perfusion as assessed by skin signs (skin turning pale) and/or capillary refill on forehead, lips and nail beds. The patient may feel dizzy, faint, nauseated, or very thirsty.

Good thinking on the renal blood flow and connection to aldosterone! http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal23/adrenal23.htm
renin (and consequently aldosterone) production is stimulated by low tubular sodium or low renal perfusion;


So, I'm thinking maybe high, not low, aldosterone could be causing some of your issues. I don't know though. Will you share your levels when you get them? I promise to excitedly jump up and down like jimmylegs when she sees vitamin D levels. :-D
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby HappyPoet » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:25 pm

Anonymoose wrote:So, I'm thinking maybe high, not low, aldosterone could be causing some of your issues. I don't know though. Will you share your levels when you get them? I promise to excitedly jump up and down like jimmylegs when she sees vitamin D levels. :-D

Thanks very much for looking into low aldo and providing links. Lots to think about.

Sure, will post my levels -- plan to ask my PCP at my March appointment for the tests with the hope that my insurance will pay, but if I have to order and pay for the tests myself, I will. My symptoms match up best with low aldo, so it will be interesting to learn the results--perhaps this is a key to my personal puzzle.

If renal venous insufficiency causes the adrenal gland(s) to become overloaded and compresses the gland tissue, maybe symptoms such as high or low aldo are due to random chance of location, location, location. I dunno.

Thx again!
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby HappyPoet » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:51 pm

Anonymoose, I'm going on a trip, but when I return I'm going to spend more time reading the links you provided and thinking/rethinking about what you said regarding high aldo. Appreciate all your thoughts and finds/links. You've infused TiMS with a new spirit of hope--having new eyes look at things can only be good for all of us. Thanks for all your contributions. :)

Btw, thanks to jimmylegs, I fought hard for a Vit D test which came back zero which shocked my PCP, so now I supplement and have a yearly Vit D test.
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby blossom » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:56 pm

hi poet, not meaning to take anything from the purpose of this discussion. it gives more food for thought and very interesting.

besides having symptoms that comes from a variety pack for most of us-i think some symptoms you are experiencing like dry mouth, constipation etc. have a chance of being a side effect from some of your meds. i don't know what you take but have you ever looked any of them up? it's a hard call--suffer with one thing to get relief from another. but it might be a start in figureing out things.
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby HappyPoet » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:47 am

Hiya blossom,

Both dry mouth and constipation are, indeed, side effects of the narcotics I have to take, but I've been experiencing these symptoms since before my first pain attack. Thanks to intercostal muscle nerve block injections for my "MS hug," I've been able to cut down the pain control meds by more than 75% but still have symptoms of dehydration. It will be interesting to see what happens when I'm fully off the narcotics--I need to be reminded that coming off narcotics is an important goal because I'm sure they're making the situation worse than it otherwise would be. Thx, blossom!
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:31 am

HappyPoet,

You might be right about the low aldosterone. Some of your meds might be affecting aldo production too. I wouldn't have thought of that as aside from CAP and now clonidine, I've been med-free. It takes all of our eyes...wise-experienced and bumbling-new to put this puzzle together.

We're going to get there. I can feel it. I suspect there are some doctors/researchers who have already put it together, especially in the "CCSVI" field. Once they publish their findings, the info will be used to identify commonalities between "CCSVI" msers and "non-CCSVI" msers. Then they'll isolate the cause and develop treatment for the good veiners too. And then we'll all have a big balloon drop party. :-D

Have a good trip!

O! And not to be a clonidine pusher, but if you've got high aldo, clonidine might help manage that *and* help with narcotic withdrawal.
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby HappyPoet » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:41 am

Here's one link that sheds a bit of light on how complicated low aldo is:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive ... 24566.html
I don't really get what is meant by "the hormone is the solution, not the cause." Any thoughts?

Time to get ready for my trip -- I'll be seeing a world-class surgeon for all my cervical spinal problems (spurs indenting and flattening my cord, herniated disc, severe stenosis, and more). I urge everyone to have spinal X-rays to check for structural problems, which have been shown by studies to cause demyelinating lesions.
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Cece » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:04 am

HappyPoet wrote:[...]I'm going to spend more time reading the links you provided and thinking/rethinking about what you said regarding high aldo. Appreciate all your thoughts and finds/links. You've infused TiMS with a new spirit of hope--having new eyes look at things can only be good for all of us. Thanks for all your contributions. :)

Seconded. :)
Wishing you the best on your trip, HappyPoet.
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Re: Could aldosterone gone bad be the cause of ccsvi and ms?

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:28 am

I'm not sure you linked to the same paper you quoted...maybe you can re link when you get back?

But, the link you did provide was speaking of aldosterone working the correct way, responding to changes in the body in order to maintain homeostasis. With hpa-axis dysregulation, aldosterone isn't being released to maintain homeostasis. It's being released in excess (or shortage) for pathological reasons. Excessive or insufficient release of aldosterone alters normal absorption and excretion of nutrients (zinc, uric acid, magnesium, potassium, etc) and levels of other hormones (anf, bnf, cortisol, progesterone, testosterone, etc). Chronic alteration in levels of nutrients and hormones due to excessive/insufficient aldosterone can elicit changes in our bodies that you wouldn't expect to see as a result of an anomaly in aldosterone levels.

That trip sounds better than a trip to Disneyworld! I can't wait to hear how it goes.
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