Tying it all together

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Tying it all together

Postby tzootsi » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:59 am

This is quite a paper - tying together diet, ccsvi, infection, etc. Pretty deep, but worth looking at.

http://www.systemdynamics.org/conferences/2012/proceed/papers/P1183.pdf
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby Cece » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:45 am

1. The root cause: A Permeable blood-brain barrier (BBB) and transmission of provocative
substances, antibodies and leucocytes into the brain. This may be caused by chronic cerebrospinal vascular insufficiency (CCSVI, and associated microclotting due to stagnant cerebrovenous blood flow), latent infections that cause a Th1-dominated immune response and release
of matrix metalloproteases (MMPs) which can alter the BBB, or a general pro-inflammatory state created due to dietary factors.

They list CCSVI as among the possible root causes of MS.
If we have microclotting, that could explain the reduction in microvessels in the parenchyma of the brain, as seen in Dr. Zivadinov's research. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2377/11/128

If everything listed is a possible root cause of MS, it might be especially not good to have all of the listed conditions: CCSVI, microclotting, latent infections such as EBV, and proinflammatory state due to dietary (or perhaps genetic, but this is not listed) factors.

Venoplasty could help the CCSVI
Could a daily baby aspirin help prevent the microclotting?
EBV vaccine in development could help eradicate EBV even in already-infected individuals if it draws EBV out of latency to kill it
Pro-inflammatory state could be improved by disease-modifying drugs and/or dietary changes

Thanks for the link, I'd seen this one discussed on Facebook yesterday but hadn't had a chance to read it.
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby dania » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:59 am

It is so hard to tie it all together. PERHAPS, the root cause differs among us that have been dx's with MS. After all, what other disease do patient's symptoms vary so greatly between patients? After trying angio, vein transplant, AO adjustments and every one of them greatly improved my condition for a short period of time, I was at a loss to explain what was going on with me. It was when I was scanned in the upright MRI by Dr Scott Rosa that another piece of the puzzle was unveiled. It showed that my CSF was not draining adequately from my brain. My atlas was out of alignment. I then turned to Dr Flanagan for help to further understand my problem. Giving him my symptoms, and the fact that I have a build up of CSF, which will cause it to leak into the brain, it looks like I have inter-cranium hypertension. I next contacted Dr Diana and asked if my high ocular pressure could be cause by NPH. She recommended trying Diamox. It addresses inter-cranium hypertension. I am now going to give Diamox a try. Keep your fingers crossed.
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby Cece » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:19 am

I've wondered if Diamox might help me or others with CCSVI, there's a lot of reason to think it could. Please keep us posted & I hope it works.
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby dania » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:25 am

Cece wrote:I've wondered if Diamox might help me or others with CCSVI, there's a lot of reason to think it could. Please keep us posted & I hope it works.

Acetazolamide (Diamox) is also used to decrease the production of cerebrospinal fluid in idiopathic intracranial hypertension as well as hydrocephalus to delay surgical intervention[5] and has shown efficacy in some form
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby Rogan » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:48 am

Wow 80% of MS patients have CCSVI.

Tying this all together for me keeps coming back to the Dr. who got us all interested again in CCSVI. Dr. Schelling.

I keep remembering his summary page from his landmark paper that helped both Dr. Zamboni and Dr. Flanagan "connect the dots" and to quote Dr. Schelling.

http://www.ms-info.net/evo/msmanu/956.htm#level_5_3


(V-2-b) Specific Spinal Scars: Also Venous in Origin?


However, Oppenheimer, who first realized the denticulate ligament's pivotal role in specific spinal patch developments, stressed that only few of the lesions which he had studied had shown a relationship to veins, and that the only patches which had done so were found to irradiate the spinal cord's sides. Oppenheimer supposed that it was full flexions of the cervical spine, especially in the presence of rigid antero-lateral fixations of the spinal dural sac, which exerted the detrimental stresses upon the denticulate ligament's attachments to the spinal cord.


Regarding the mechanisms capable of producing bilateral cord lesions, even the most detailed accounts on classic instances of spinal multiple sclerosis consistently lack any indications of either some massive thrust upon the spinal cord’s front or of a heavy impact upon walls or surroundings of the vertebral canal. It is difficult to believe that in all these observations (series of) corresponding injurious processes or events were consistently overlooked. Therefore the search must begin for an endogenous source of comparably effective injurious impulses capable of continually injuring the spinal cord's specifically affected parts.


As to spinal cord flank lesions, the development of minimally traumatizing surgical procedures for interrupting the pathways of vehement venous regurgitations into the lowermost spinal canal appears – as challenging as this task may appear – equally promising.




Dr.Arata is telling us he can't help about 15% of MS patients through neck venoplasty. Are these doctors all coming to the same conclusion that about 15% of MS patients need to see a chiropractor or need to wait for the above mentioned "minimally traumatizing surgical procedure" to be invented for the spine?
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby cheerleader » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:04 pm

But why a permeable BBB? Taking a giant step back....it's possible to tie it all together when we look at slowed cerebral perfusion.

Hypoperfusion can be caused by injury, mechanical defect (in spine or vasculature). It can be exacerbated by endothelial dysfunction, which is caused by a number of things. It may be related to autonomic dysfunction.

Slowed bloodflow affects drainage of CSF, as shown by BNAC and Dr. Zamboni
http://registration.akm.ch/einsicht.php ... KEN_ID=900
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20018140

Slowed bloodflow activates fibrinogen in the brain in all neurodegenerative disease and brain trauma.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19630789


Find out why your cerebral bloodflow is not normal....what is causing hypoperfusion, and you can help hopefully slow and stop neurodegenerative disease. This means each patient needs to go thru the list. CCSVI, neck injury, chiari, NPH, co-infections, diet and exercise. CCSVI Alliance is working on bringing these doctors together. Fortunately for all of us, Dr. Siskin, Mehta and Rosa are all in Albany :) And Dr. Flanagan and Dr. Schelling, Zamboni, Zivadinov, Haacke and others are connecting. There are answers for all diseases of neurodegeneration.

Yes, it's an exhausting process for those with neurodegenerative disease, and my heart goes out to Dania, 1 eye, blossom and others still looking for their personal answer. Jeff was lucky to find his with the endothelial health program and stenting. But it will not be the same game plan for everyone. And that makes this journey more complex....but hopefully, not impossible.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby dania » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:14 pm

Cheer you hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby HappyPoet » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:59 pm

cheer, terrific post.

Dr. Flanagan is in Albany, NY, too.
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby cheerleader » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:45 pm

HappyPoet wrote:cheer, terrific post.

Dr. Flanagan is in Albany, NY, too.


Wow! Didn't know that...looks like upper state NY is the place to be for answers to neurodegenerative disease! :!:
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby Montana » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:41 pm

Thoughts about Diamox:
* It is not an innocuous drug. It has side effects to be aware of
http://www.drugs.com/mtm/diamox.html

*As we age we produce less CSF, yet we need an adequate amount constantly circulating to keep flushing and eliminating toxins from our brains so they don't become toxic waste dumps.

*Structural anomalies of the head and neck (usually from trauma) can inhibit adequate drainage and circulation of CSF, thus promoting static pooling in the brain and a predictable sequelae of headaches, dizziness, visual disturbance, ventricular distortion, autonomic dysfunction and much more including pressure conus. (Read Dr. Flanagan.)

*In most cases, I'm not sure that reducing the amount of CSF production through off-label use of Diamox is a healthy alternative to attempting to facilitate better drainage and circulation.

*Weigh the risk/benefit ratio before you experiment.
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby 1eye » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:53 pm

Somebody who has been to Everest base camp told me Diamox is commonly used for altitude sickness.
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby EJC » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:18 am

I think Cheer has got it.

I think of MS like an Onion. Each layer is a "problem" that you have to peel off.

Not only have you got to work out what the problem (cause) is, you have to get them in the right order.

Emma has found the treatment that helps her, TMJ and jaw realignment. But she has also had CCSVI. Now we wonder if the skeletal misalignment was instrumental in the presence of CCSVI. So do we need to go through angioplasty again? Do we need it at all?

Have we in fact found the two right things we needed to do but got them done in the wrong order?

The idea that there is one single thing causing "MS" globally just isn't logical. You effectively have to peel your own onion!
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby dania » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:56 am

What a wonderful analogy! Well put.
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Re: Tying it all together

Postby ttucker3 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:16 am

Why a permeable BBB?

My perception is this Cheer. Start with Zamboni and his finding that venous reflux correlates with the conditions for MS. The pressure from a venous reflux pulse adds to the pressure from a direct capillary bed outflow pulse. If this occurs in the venules, then there must be hypertension in the venules. Hence, Venous Reflux = Hypertension. Venous hypertension in the venules causes stretching of the compliant (elastic) venules. The venules' BBB is normally permeable to smaller elements and cells. Hypertension-induced stretching of the venules almost certainly increases the permeability of the venules' BBB. Hence, Hypertension = Increased BBB Permeability. Therefore, Venous Reflux = Increased BBB Permeability. It is a good starting place for understanding the origins of MS.

Trev. Tucker

cheerleader wrote:But why a permeable BBB? Taking a giant step back....it's possible to tie it all together when we look at slowed cerebral perfusion.

Hypoperfusion can be caused by injury, mechanical defect (in spine or vasculature). It can be exacerbated by endothelial dysfunction, which is caused by a number of things. It may be related to autonomic dysfunction.

Slowed bloodflow affects drainage of CSF, as shown by BNAC and Dr. Zamboni
http://registration.akm.ch/einsicht.php ... KEN_ID=900
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20018140

Slowed bloodflow activates fibrinogen in the brain in all neurodegenerative disease and brain trauma.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19630789


Find out why your cerebral bloodflow is not normal....what is causing hypoperfusion, and you can help hopefully slow and stop neurodegenerative disease. This means each patient needs to go thru the list. CCSVI, neck injury, chiari, NPH, co-infections, diet and exercise. CCSVI Alliance is working on bringing these doctors together. Fortunately for all of us, Dr. Siskin, Mehta and Rosa are all in Albany :) And Dr. Flanagan and Dr. Schelling, Zamboni, Zivadinov, Haacke and others are connecting. There are answers for all diseases of neurodegeneration.

Yes, it's an exhausting process for those with neurodegenerative disease, and my heart goes out to Dania, 1 eye, blossom and others still looking for their personal answer. Jeff was lucky to find his with the endothelial health program and stenting. But it will not be the same game plan for everyone. And that makes this journey more complex....but hopefully, not impossible.
cheer
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