Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby Anonymoose » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:21 am

Thanks Blossom. Good points. :)
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby 1eye » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:57 pm

Does CCSVI cause increased ICP? How?
I think this is a key question. Let's examine where CSF comes from. My understanding is that it is transferred across the ventricle walls, which are producing it by osmosis from venous blood. Osmosis: I used to have an osmotic filter that took iron out of my well water, and produced some somewhat cleaner drinking water. One of the hard things about this approach was that we had to periodically introduce 20-50 kilograms (that is let's say 50-100 pounds) of solid brickets of rock salt to a big vat of water. This water was fed by the well, and would then go to the osmotic filter. There, the iron and minerals came out, and what was left came out the tap.

The filtrate would end up in a filter in our basement. To illustrate how this works,
in: http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/interior/1275126.

Image
The Solution Is The Problem

While water is in the ground, it picks up soluble bits of whatever it passes through. While this can mean contamination that makes the water unfit to drink, in many cases it simply means that the water contains minerals found in the earth. Of these, calcium and magnesium are of particular importance because they affect the water's ability to function in our homes. These minerals make our water hard.

One effect of hard water is that soaps and detergents lose some effectiveness. Instead of dissolving completely, soap combines with the minerals to form a coagulated soap curd. Because less soap is dissolved, more is required. And the sticky insoluble curd hangs around--it clings to the skin and may actually inhibit cleansing. Washed hair seems dull and lifeless.

In the laundry, things aren't much better. The soap curd can work its way into your clothes as they're being washed in your automatic washing machine. This can keep dirt trapped in the fibers, and it can stiffen and roughen the fabric.

In addition to affecting the actual washing process, insoluble soap deposits leave spots on everything you wash--from your dishes to the family car--and a soap film will build up in your bath and shower.

Another reason to be concerned about hard water is its effect on your plumbing system. Calcium and magnesium deposits can build up in pipes, reducing flow to taps and appliances. In water heaters, these minerals generate a scale buildup that reduces the efficiency and life of the heater.

The Fix

The solution to the problem is to get rid of the calcium and magnesium. While there are chemical treatments that do this, the most popular answer is a water softener.

The typical water softener is a mechanical appliance that's plumbed into your home's water supply system. All water softeners use the same operating principle: They trade the minerals for something else, in most cases sodium. The process is called ion exchange.

The heart of a water softener is a mineral tank. It's filled with small polystyrene beads, also known as resin or zeolite. The beads carry a negative charge.

Calcium and magnesium in water both carry positive charges. This means that these minerals will cling to the beads as the hard water passes through the mineral tank. Sodium ions also have positive charges, albeit not as strong as the charge on the calcium and magnesium. When a very strong brine solution is flushed through a tank that has beads already saturated with calcium and magnesium, the sheer volume of the sodium ions is enough to drive the calcium and magnesium ions off the beads. Water softeners have a separate brine tank that uses common salt to create this brine solution.

In normal operation, hard water moves into the mineral tank and the calcium and magnesium ions move to the beads, replacing sodium ions. The sodium ions go into the water. Once the beads are saturated with calcium and magnesium, the unit enters a 3-phase regenerating cycle. First, the backwash phase reverses water flow to flush dirt out of the tank. In the recharge phase, the concentrated sodium-rich salt solution is carried from the brine tank through the mineral tank. The sodium collects on the beads, replacing the calcium and magnesium, which go down the drain. Once this phase is over, the mineral tank is flushed of excess brine and the brine tank is refilled.

The Brains

Most popular water softeners have an automatic regenerating system. The most basic type has an electric timer that flushes and recharges the system on a regular schedule. During recharging, soft water is not available.

A second type of control uses a computer that watches how much water is used. When enough water has passed through the mineral tank to have depleted the beads of sodium, the computer triggers regeneration. These softeners often have reserve resin capacity, so that some soft water will be available during recharging.

A third type of control uses a mechanical water meter to measure water usage and initiate recharging. The advantage of this system is that no electrical components are required and the mineral tank is only recharged when necessary. When it is equipped with two mineral tanks, softened water is always available, even when the unit is recharging.

Judging Water Hardness

Companies that sell water softening equipment generally offer test kits that help you determine the hardness of your water. For commercial testing sources, check your Yellow Pages under "water analysis."

Water hardness is measured in grains per gallon (GPG) or milligrams per liter (mg/l, equivalent to parts per million, or ppm). Water up to 1 GPG (or 17.1 mg/l) is considered soft, and water from 60 to 120 GPG is considered moderately hard. A water softener's effectiveness depends on how hard the incoming water is. Water over 100 GPG may not be completely softened.

Health Concerns

Hard water poses no health hazard. On the other hand, the sodium that remains in softened water may be a problem for those on sodium-restricted diets. Other people simply may wish to avoid the slightly salty taste of treated water. In either case you can install a separate water dispenser that bypasses the softener. You also can use potassium chloride instead of salt, although this costs about three to four times more.


My grandmother had had a stroke, so she used, from then on, potassium chloride to salt her food. So I'm not so sure hard water poses no health hazard.

At any rate, that is how calcium, magnesium, iron, etc. were removed from our well water, and replaced with salt ions. The salt ions were left in the water to replace them. Our clothes could get clean. But if we drank the water, we got a large dose of sodium.

In our CNS the pump of the CSF is known as the "sodium pump". Can you guess why blood is salty? A major recycling job must be being done, to circulate blood into spinal fluid, and back again. Both of these jobs happen in the tissues of the brain. What happens to all the iron? It started out in red blood cells. It ends up in CSF that is absorbed back into the bloodstream, where it gets mixed in with blood which already has new red blood cells. Where does the iron go in the meantime?

Anyway I presume there is a fine balance required to maintain both blood and CSF pressures in the CNS. I also presume that problems with blood flow are directly reflected in CSF production, flow, and absorption.

I also think I have an idea why my problems did not appear until I was over 35 and had lived over 5 years on well water.
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby Anonymoose » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:36 pm

Oh what a gift! Not only a solid lesson on csf as the sodium pump but I also now understand why our well water at our little country play house tasted like iron and why we had such terrible water pressure. If only I had read this post two years ago! I am glad the water was too gross for me to drink. I wonder if there is a correlation between well water and ms.

Iron is thought to be involved in bbb failure? I know there are deposits but nothing much beyond that. I will study up on that this evening.

In the meantime, I think this might be tied into that sodium pump thing too. Without going into any detail, I can say I know I am a very salty person. Lol. That's so weird. Anyway, does being extra salty exacerbate sodium pump and icp issues?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldosterone
Drugs that interfere with the secretion or action of aldosterone are in use as antihypertensives. One example is spironolactone, which lowers blood pressure by blocking the aldosterone receptor; its net effect is to reduce sodium and water retention, but increase retention of potassium. Aldosterone is part of the renin-angiotensin system.

Sorry Cheer. I guess I'm just a rebel with a cause. :)
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby PointsNorth » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:17 pm

@moose

We figured you were worth your salt :-D

Interested in your thoughts on PQQ in the 'G' forum

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Hurry up and wait.
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby Anonymoose » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:28 pm

LOL! I am so glad I was alone in my car when I read that as it caused an awfully startling eruption of laughter. Very cute. :P

The only thing PQQ has stirred in my head thus far is that it reminds me of threads on tonic water and quinine...not the same thing, eh? I'll try to get some better thoughts and post in the 'G' forum.
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby PointsNorth » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:27 pm

My only experience with quinine is when it comes with a lime and a splash of gin :-|
Albany 2010. Brooklyn 2011
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby 1eye » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:41 pm

understand why our well water at our little country play house tasted like iron and why we had such terrible water pressure
It tasted like iron because there was iron in the rocks of your well. Other tastes might have included sulfur (why does it smell worse after I flush than before?) calcium, magnesium, whatever the geology had to offer.

We had very hard water, and low pressure due to the low power of our well water pump (electrical, not sodium).

Our drinking water in the kitchen was untreated. The rest of the house wasn't. During the backwash cycle, which was at 2am, it was all untreated. Still, we probably drank a lot of salt.
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby Cece » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:43 pm

I grew up drinking well water!
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby 1eye » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:54 pm

Just a clarification. Two thing are happening (hopefully more) in brains.

reverse osmosis:
blood => CSF (under pressure in a microporous membrane/ventricle?)

Is this arterial blood, under higher pressure?

osmosis??
CSF => blood

I remembered that my softener had reverse osmosis as the last step.

In hydrocephalus there is too much CSF or it can't get out. The getting out: is it only venous blood it ends up in? I think so, based on the stuff they were working on in Rochester.

Is the production of CSF from arterial higher-pressure blood or venous, or both? Maybe the CSF comes directly from capillaries?

Anyway there had to be a huge amount of salt that went into the ground during the backwash cycle. The brine charged the zeolite resin with sodium ions, which were exchanged for the mineral ions in the unfiltered water. That was the softening step. The water ended up with the same quantity of solutes; just sodium instead of the other minerals.

Does CSF need pressure? How much?

The backwash cleaned out minerals. That was like the sodium pump.

There was other stuff still in the softened water. Germs, microscopic particles, parasites, all kinds of stuff. That was removed by reverse osmosis.

Reverse osmosis water filters are more like the blood-brain barrier. Ours had its own pump, and lived under the kitchen sink. It was water under pressure being forced through microscopic pores in a membrane.

This is like blood=>CSF. It requires pressure and tight junctions, and the filtrates remain on the blood side. We had to periodically change the micro-filter, every couple years.

The softening and filtering were daily. So was the backwash/recharge. A much lower pressure required.

http://www.axeonwater.com/reverseosmosiswaterfiltration.html

By applying pressure to water with high amount of dissolved solutes, it is possible to reverse the osmosis process. The tainted water will be forced through a semi permeable membrane to remove any dissolved salts or contaminants that may exist in the water. a fairly high amount of pressure and a membrane with extremely small pores is in general a common feature of all reverse osmosis filtration units for water filtration.

Capable of working at such microscopic levels, this technology is one of the most cost effective methods of desalinating salty water. the quality of the semi permeable membrane determines to some degree the effectiveness of reverse osmosis water filtration. All filtration units based on this technology use a membrane to filter the water. particles larger than 0.0005 microns is the typical rating of the membrane filter. 0.005 microns and above is the typical rating for other filtration units in comparison, that remove larger particles. In principle, the filtration systems work by forcing contaminated water through these membranes under high pressure into the other side of the membrane which is under lower pressure. All pollutants that are larger than the rated size of the membrane become trapped on the intake side of the filtration unit leaving clean water to pass through to the outlet side of the filtration system.

There may be times however when unwanted compounds are smaller than the ratings of the membrane. For example, hydrogen sulfide which causes the bad smell found in water, is not always easy to remove through reverse osmosis for this reason. This is because the principle compound that causes this problem has a molecular diameter that is smaller than the filters pore size. Consequently, the foul smell in the water may remain though several other impurities have been effectively removed. Reverse osmosis water filtration is capable of removing very many other compounds hence its continued popularity.

magnesium, calcium, Sodium, lead, cyanide and many other elements are just a few examples of the compounds that are easily filtered out. viruses, protozoan bacteria and parasites that can be dangerous to your health are also exampled of impurities that these filtration systems are capable of removing. The high pressure areas in reverse osmosis water filtration units can become clogged with high concentration of contaminants unable to pass through the membrane after a while. Leaving the units with contaminated water can spoil filtered water. Known as brine, it is important to release this filtrate from the filtration unit early to prevent clogging. To do this, most units incorporate a release valve to safely remove the water out of the filtration unit.

during a filtration task, the reverse osmosis water filtration membrane can easily be damaged if caution is not observed. sometimes a pre-filter is used with the reverse osmosis unit in order to protect them from early failure. After the contaminated water goes through the pre filter it passes the reverse osmosis membrane for the last filtration step. The pre filter will remove larger particles and molecules thus protecting the more sensitive membrane of the RO unit from damage


Maybe we have clogged BBBs. Maybe there is too much guck in our blood, I dunno. Improving drainage can't hurt.
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby Anonymoose » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:50 pm

1eye,
How does potassium deficiency affect your sodium pump? Is a sodium-potassium pump the same thing you speak of?
http://www.nutros.net/nsr-02003.html
Potassium works intricately with sodium (also an electrolyte). The balance of sodium and potassium is particularly important to the function of muscle and nerve impulses. When your muscles contract, potassium exits the cell and sodium enters, creating a change in the electrical charge in the cell. This is called the "sodium-potassium pump."

Get your geek on and give me another lesson. :)

Oop. I found an animation. Gotta love online community college textbooks. :)
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0 ... works.html

So, I guess a potassium deficiency would slow the movement of sodium out of the cell.
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Re: Venous Drainage Issues and Medullary region

Postby Rogan » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:29 pm

Anonymoose wrote:A peace offering...
This is an interesting read. Speaks of intracranial pressure and increased risk of BBB breach. Could this somehow support the blood flow irregularity induced BBB breach? I looked up MS and increased ICP and there was no absolute connection between the two. That doesn't mean that it can't play a part in those folks with CCSVI. Does CCSVI cause increased ICP? How?
http://neuroanesthesia.ucsf.edu/residen ... oncept.pdf

I think excess aldosterone causes increased immune activity and endothelial dysfunction which creates BBB breach, allowing the immune system and fibrinogen do it's work where it's not meant to do so. Aldosterone levels can be influenced by not only stress but also the performance of cortisol's negative feedback loop, sodium, potassium, magnesium, vitamin D, and drug intake to name a few. HPA axis dysregulation is one thing that all pwms have in common. The alternate causes you listed are not issues with all pwms. I might be wrong, but it won't stop me from being stubborn and trying to treat HPA axis dysregulation as the cause to see what happens.



When ever Anonymoose brings up a ICP question in proximity to a 1 eye fluid mechanics genuis. I like to go back to what the Upright Doc said.....

http://www.thisisms.com/forum/post200898.html#p200898

Again from his wonderful book...

"The passive production of CSF is dependent upon a slight increase in the CSF pressure gradient, which drops from about +5 to 10 mmHg, in the recumbent position, to about -5 mmHg in the upright position....In any case, blockage of the accessory drainage system could increase resistance to flow through the dural sinuses. This would decrease the pressure gradient and passive production of CSF, which could weaken brain support"

I have read on Wikipedia that currently CSF pressure is read through a very invasive wire placed on the brain. A few European companies have patented a device that can non-invasively read this pressure through your eye.

Thank you both for your wonderful contributions to this site. I learn more and more everyday thanks to you both.....

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