head rotation's effect on jugular size

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head rotation's effect on jugular size

Postby Cece » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:23 pm

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2377/13/162/abstract
Conclusion

A dynamic ECD approach allowed us to detect IJVs with a significant increase in their CSAs during head rotation, but only in MS subjects. This feature, most likely the expression of congenital wall miopragia, could be secondary to dysregulation of collagen synthesis, but further histochemical studies will be needed to confirm this hypothesis.

Wall miopragia???

Rotating the head caused significant increase in the size of the IJV in the MS patient. I don't know how to interpret this. Full abstract is at the link.
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Re: head rotation's effect on jugular size

Postby Lety » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:25 pm

Cece wrote:http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2377/13/162/abstract
Conclusion

A dynamic ECD approach allowed us to detect IJVs with a significant increase in their CSAs during head rotation, but only in MS subjects. This feature, most likely the expression of congenital wall miopragia, could be secondary to dysregulation of collagen synthesis, but further histochemical studies will be needed to confirm this hypothesis.

Wall miopragia???

Rotating the head caused significant increase in the size of the IJV in the MS patient. I don't know how to interpret this. Full abstract is at the link.



Good morning

has this something to do with the compression of the muscle omoioideus? when I turn my head to the left this open the jugular, with straight head she is totally closed. This was told to me on my last ECD investigation.
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Re: head rotation's effect on jugular size

Postby frodo » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:07 am

Cece wrote:http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2377/13/162/abstract

Rotating the head caused significant increase in the size of the IJV in the MS patient. I don't know how to interpret this. Full abstract is at the link.


[/quote]

It is a really weird result. I understand that the IJV flow is improved when rotating the head while not in controls. In some way is the opposite that I thought, but is important to confirm again that IJVs in patients and controls are different.
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Re: head rotation's effect on jugular size

Postby cheerleader » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:29 am

this is a tough one to plow thru---yikes!!

From what I'm reading, it looks like they developed a "dynamic" or movement related way to scan, by scanning while rotating the heads of healthy controls and pwMS/CCSVI. This created external pressure on the jugular veins by the sternocleomastoid muscle. In people with MS, this made a bigger difference on the opposite side of the turn---their veins had a larger cross sectional area. In healthy people, it didn't make as big a difference. This is because, in their opinion, healthy people have stronger, less pliant veins. The head turn doesn't compress their jugular vein as much, so the other vein doesn't need to enlarge.

People with MS/CCSVI showed an hourglass shape in the neutral position---without turning the head. They call this "miopragic" or simply dysfunctional, and say that it's due to "jugular collapse" They say it could be because the walls of the jugular veins in pwMS are different, possibly due to a collagen disorder. I think back on Dr. Dake telling us that Jeff's jugular veins were "sticky"--that he'd never seen anything like it. The balloon actually stuck to the walls of his vein.
They do not think it is because of muscle pressure, because it's at a higher level. They think it's actually the lining of the vein.

In normal people, rotating the head did not change the cross sectional area of the jugular vein on the opposite side, this happened only in pwMS.

The worse the CCSVI and MS, the more not normal the jugular veins functioned---they're really looking at this as a congenital venous malformation--and they are also saying that ballooning these kinds of veins would not be helpful. Which would certainly explain restenosis problems. sigh. And makes me wonder if stenting or open surgery really will be the way to go as we move forward.
we still do not know what we do not know,
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: head rotation's effect on jugular size

Postby Cece » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:07 am

Thanks, Cheer.
Looks like the full 29 page article is available through the abstract linked. I thought we only had the abstract!

A compilation of previous research on head rotation's effect on jugulars in healthy controls: chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic17299.html

There was also the research awhile back looking at collagen abnormalities in the jugulars even high in the jugulars away from the blockages. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0712000592
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Re: head rotation's effect on jugular size

Postby 1eye » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:17 pm

Had any of these people with CCSVI had treatment?? I never really understood how you can measure CSA with ECD because I thought it could only do 2 dimensions (velocity). I thought MR and a catheter were both better to visualize veins. I also thought IVUS was supposed to give you a better idea of CSA. Are we finding uncertainty with instruments we depend on?

I have been treated once, but according to Angela at Dr. MacDonald's, ECD said I have problems on my right side. There must be a crossover higher up, because all my physical problems are on the left.

My left jugular doesn't seem to be there when I am upright but my right is, and looks flat like it should (I think) when I am upright. Don't know what either side looks like when supine. When a normal person is upright and angry, their jugulars look inflated. Or are those the externals? If they are IJVs, I suppose the right side might only be visible because I have a stenosis below the part I can see, and the left is OK.

I have "SPMS".
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience
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Re: head rotation's effect on jugular size

Postby THX1138 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:12 pm

I have pulsatile tinnitus that increases in intensity when I turn my head either way; this increase in intensity occurs as my head nears the position where the rotation stops and increases the nearer I get to the point where the head can't be turned any farther.

One thing that makes the tinnitus quiet down significantly is soaking my feet in Magnesium Chloride flakes dissolved in water (similar to an Epsom salts foot bath). The tinnitus grows more and more quiet the longer i soak, frequently nearly disappearing after an hour or so. Post-soak, the tinnitus gradually increases in intensity but does not reach its pre-soak intensity. I have several Mg deficiency symptoms and the fact that Mg acts as a vasorelaxer seems to explain a lot of what I observe.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=a+warning+to+clinicians+magnesium
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15637222

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