jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

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jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

Postby frodo » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:32 am

Source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.11 ... 017-0008-3

Background

Multiple sclerosis (MS) is a chronic disease of the central nervous system. As an association between MS and reduced cerebral venous blood drainage was hypothesised, our aim was to compare the size of the jugular foramina in patients with MS and in control subjects.

Results

The mean diameter of the right foramen in patients with MS (6.3 ± 1.6 mm) was 10% smaller than that of the controls (7.0 ± 1.4 mm) (p = 0.020); the mean diameter of the left foramen in patients with MS (5.6 ± 1.3 mm) was 7% smaller than that of the controls (6.0 ± 1.3 mm) (p = 0.089). The sum of the diameters of both jugular foramina in patients with MS (mean 11.9 ± 2.3 mm) was 8% smaller (p = 0.009) than that of the controls (mean 13.0 ± 2.1 mm). The differences in diameters between patients with relapsing-remitting MS and patients with secondary progressive MS were not significant (p ≥ 0.332). There was no significant correlation between foramen diameters and the expanded disability status scale (p ≥ 0.079). Intra-reader and inter-reader reproducibility were 91% and 88%, respectively.

Conclusions

Jugular foramen diameter in patients with MS was 7-10% smaller than that in controls, regardless of the MS disease course.
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Re: jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

Postby 1eye » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:09 pm

I think this pattern will continue. CCSVI (thanks to virulent and well funded opposition) has been declared non-existent. Therefore the funding for studies intended to debunk it will dry up. Funding for genuine research into the real science behind the very real condition now legitimately and commonly known by its correct name, CCSVI, will continue until the facts about CCSVI are well-known, and perhaps a cure is found.

In the end, truth always wins.

I think some criteria need to be met by any study, whose results are widely publicized, having to do with the study size.
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Re: jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

Postby ElliotB » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:25 pm

Everyone who has a theory about MS is certain they are right. How many different theories about the cause of MS? So many I have lost track!

If CCSVI is the true/real/only cause of MS, why are there people that have MS and don't have CCSVI and people that have CCSVI and don't have MS?


The study referenced above itself shows graphs and data that appears to show that not ever person with MS in the study had narrower jugular veins and not everyone with narrower jugular veins had MS.


A couple of the conclusions of this study: "The clinical relevance of this study may only be speculated upon" and "endovascular venous angioplasty, ..., might in any case be useless in patients with small jugular foramina".
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Re: jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

Postby centenarian100 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:25 pm

What the study shows is that there is a huge overlap between patients with MS and controls, so jugular foramen diameter does not really predict multiple sclerosis.

Also, we know that veins are capacitance vessels and very based on hydration status.

source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24175155

A lot of people with MS don't like to drink a lot because it makes them have to urinate a lot.
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Re: jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

Postby 1eye » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:31 pm

If CCSVI is the true/real/only cause of MS, why are there people that have MS and don't have CCSVI and people that have CCSVI and don't have MS?


I haven't seen anyone claiming that in a long long time if ever. If CCSVI doesn't have anything to do with it, a lot of people are very confused, and I don't think so. There is a lot of serious and expensive research going on. I doubt that anybody doing it reads ThisIsMS and decides, well, those frequent party-poopers and frequent trolls and what-not on ThisIsMS must be right, so I guess I'll go do something else with my life. I kind of doubt whether this forum has any effect on serious medical or scientific research, whatever. Except it keeps some types off the street and out of the way. I am happy to do my part.
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Re: jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

Postby centenarian100 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:48 pm

1eye wrote:If CCSVI doesn't have anything to do with it, a lot of people are very confused, and I don't think so.


Why is it so surprising that people are confused? People get confused all the time. People think dental amalgams cause MS. People think that MS is actually lyme disease. People think that bee sting therapy or chiropractic manipulation works for MS. The evidence clearly shows that CCSVI is not unique to MS, and venous interventions have heretofore shown no benefit in randomized trials.

People always think that the "cure of the week" works because of a anecdotal reports. However, even ineffective treatments generate positive anecdotes. An obvious example is blood letting. People report positive responses to blood letting all the time.

What would have to occur for you to admit that CCSVI is not related to MS?

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Re: jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

Postby ElliotB » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:29 pm

"What would have to occur for you to admit that CCSVI is not related to MS?"

I think if Dr. Zamboni himself came out and admitted that he and his CCSVI theory was wrong, his followers would still not believe him!
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Re: jugular veins are 10% narrower in MS than controls

Postby 1eye » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:08 pm

I think if Dr. Freedman, and various others, came out with a paper, saying CCSVI theory is true and useful, there would still be paid shills willing to contradict them.

I am tired of all the useless contradiction. The facts are not changed by detractors. I am living proof, but don't change any of your prejudices. I'll die eventually. The truth may see the light of day eventually, also. I use CCSVI-related principles every day to avoid falling, which has been very harmful to me in the past. That can be done by anyone with MS, if they don't mind being living proof too. I ride a mean recumbent electric trike as well.
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