Thyroid veins

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Thyroid veins

Postby mrhodes40 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:36 am

Dr Zamboni's new paper talks about the collateral circulation and how that impacts CCSVi. he mentions in the abstract that the THYROID VEINS are impacted too.

I wanted to mention something about this. Recently in another thread another TIMSer mentioned that he felt the proof that MS was autoimmune was that we have other autoimmune diseases more often than others do asserting that these co autoimmunities are endorsing the notion that they are therefore both autoimmunities.

It turns out there is not proof of excessive co autoimmunities in MS except with regards to the thyroid gland. We do have an increased incidence of thyroid issues with MS.

I have pointed out before the thyroid veins are likely impacted by CCSVI and Dr Zamboni mentions it specifically in his paper so that was a decent call.

We have mentioned it before but scleroderma can be triggered by venous insufficiency, cured by repairing the flow problem. CLICK HERE FOR PUBMED SCLERODERMA
Might the thyroid problems seen in MS be initiated by CCSVI too?

It is interesting to note that the Campath trials have discovered that thyroiditis occurs vastly more often in Campath treated persons

In the phase 2 trials, 20% of Campath-treated patients developed thyroid disorders compared to 3% on Rebif. Krupp notes, however, that thyroid trouble seems to occur with MS anyway, for reasons that are not well understood
FROM HERE CLICK

SO here we have a drug that is supposed to be the brightest hope for MS patients to date and they can't figure out why a so called autoimmune disease is INCREASED in prevalence to the level that one in 5 are getting it in addition to the MS as a side effect of getting the drug.

It is a head scratcher for them because why would an autoimmune disease incidence go up when you whacked to immune system so hard that it is deficient?

But what if MS is CCSVI, what then?

Well the circulation is not going to change so the stenosis wherever it is is still there. If it impacts the thyroid, as apparently it does in 20% of cases, then it is getting whacked by the blood flow issue and it is also not getting help and repair from the immune system for that whack....cause the immune system is largely knocked out by campath.

it is just a thought..
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Postby cheerleader » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:11 pm

Wow...great connections, Marie! I didn't realize the thyroid is a tributary for the IJVs. Here's a good description of thyroid drainage for those (like me) who didn't know how it all works...

Three pairs of veins provide venous drainage (see Image 4) to the thyroid gland. The superior thyroid vein ascends along the superior thyroid artery and becomes a tributary of the internal jugular vein. The middle thyroid vein follows a direct course laterally to the internal jugular vein. The inferior thyroid veins follow different paths on each side. The right passes anterior to the innominate artery to the right brachiocephalic vein or anterior to the trachea to the left brachiocephalic vein. On the left side, drainage is to the left brachiocephalic vein. Occasionally, both inferior veins form a common trunk called the thyroid ima vein, which empties into the left brachiocephalic vein.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/835535-overview

Wouldn't it be fascinating to learn that the unknown connection of thyroid disease to MS would be another proof of CCSVI?
Can't wait to read that new Zamboni paper and see the connections they've made!
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby marcstck » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:39 pm

Interesting thought, but the most prevalent thyroid disease seen in MS patients is Hashimoto's thyroiditis, which is undoubtedly an autoimmune disease. It is diagnosed by a finding of specific anti-thyroid antibodies in serum.

Dr. Dake is supposed to be contacting my PCP to give him specific instructions regarding the CT venography I'm trying to get. I'm definitely not discounting CCSVI and its role in the MS disease process...
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Postby mrhodes40 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:27 am

I agree that these are genuine autoimmune diseases. The question is could they be triggered by venous insufficiency? If so it would be interesting that both of these autoimmune diseases that can be associated with MS can be triggered and it appears that there can be/probably is venous blockage of the thyroid gland in CCSVI. The abstract for the scleroderma reference does not mention if they feel there is any immune involvement from a self antigen angle. IE the venous issue triggered autoimmunity.

Background
Multiple sclerosis (MS), Hashimoto's disease and Graves' disease are autoimmune diseases that may share similar pathogenic mechanisms. The co-occurrence rates and demographic characteristics of Graves' disease and Hashimoto's disease (HT) in our MS population are compared with the general population.

Methods
The prevalence of thyroid disease in our MS patients was determined by chart review and survey. Previous diagnosis of thyroid disease, age at diagnosis, treatment used, and about the use of disease modifying medications used to treat their MS were asked. Chart reviews were used to estimate the population prevalence of Graves' disease and Hashimoto's disease and to estimate the demographics of patients with thyroid disease.

Results
A significant co-occurrence of Graves' disease with MS (p = 0.002), and a non-significant co-occurrence of Hashimoto's disease were noted (p = 0.097). No difference in the age of onset or gender of thyroid disease in MS patients compared to the general population was found.

Conclusion
There is a significant co-occurrence in patients with MS and Graves' disease, and a trend to co-occurrence in patients with MS and Hashimoto's disease. There are no differences in the demographics of patients with thyroid disease in our MS patients compared to the general population.



from here
http://www.jautoimdis.com/content/2/1/
I'm not offering medical advice, I am just a patient too! Talk to your doctor about what is best for you...
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Thyroid

Postby silverbirch » Sun May 16, 2010 7:57 am

Cheerleader / marcstck

After a number of yrs with migrains on/off fixed by Imigrin tabs counter meds.
2009 I had an attack first thought to be stroke after two weeks DX with MS ( never really knew anything about ms) although I have heard two to get DX is very quick all leaves me with the "collie wobbles "really.

I know my MRI's (2) six weeks apart showed 4 lesions and spinal tap oli bands were low !! DX of MS based on MRI. However just had another MRI awaiting results

Nuero picked up on TSH 5.59 (range 0.27-4.20) Free T4 15.5 ( range 12.0-22.0) normal
Funny I also have a number of cysts in my bust and a big operation in 1990 to remove a 5 inch cyst from one on my overies.

Neuro wants to put me on DMD Im going to hold off untill I have further tests on my thyroid , screening and marcstck Hashimoto's.
Ive just had 2nd blood test to check levels again now I will push with all my evidence

I hope to get part screening via NHS (uk) CCSVI style on the back of thyroid being vascular ... but wont mention MS . Since first & only attack lost 2 1/2 stone in weight..

Cheerleader can you let me know what paper Dr Z's on thyroid ?

Marcstck Hashimoto's thyroiditis - were can I get a good paper on it ?


Thankyou for your time in reading my logg and apoligies in advance if Ive been to forward in my requests.

Kindest regards
Silverbirch
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Postby ndwannabe » Sun May 16, 2010 9:34 am

Fascinating.

This begs the question - what if ALL autoimmune decreases are just diseases that we simply don't know the reason for?

Web definition
Autoimmune diseases arise from an overactive immune response of the body against substances and tissues normally present in the body. In other words, the body actually attacks its own cells. The immune system mistakes some part of the body as a pathogen


If you ask me it sounds like "Well, we don't know WHY thy immune system does it, therefore let's say it does it by mistake. Yeah. You know, mistakes do happen. And since we, the scientists can not possibly be mistaken, iut must be the immune system that is mistaken."
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Postby sbr487 » Sun May 16, 2010 9:49 am

ndwannabe wrote:Fascinating.

This begs the question - what if ALL autoimmune decreases are just diseases that we simply don't know the reason for?

Web definition
Autoimmune diseases arise from an overactive immune response of the body against substances and tissues normally present in the body. In other words, the body actually attacks its own cells. The immune system mistakes some part of the body as a pathogen


If you ask me it sounds like "Well, we don't know WHY thy immune system does it, therefore let's say it does it by mistake. Yeah. You know, mistakes do happen. And since we, the scientists can not possibly be mistaken, iut must be the immune system that is mistaken."


I think auto-immune answers what part of the diseases in the absence of knowledge about why part. For example, some of them might lead to genetic defects as the main cause, but until that time, auto-immune is the term that will probably be used.
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Postby Johnson » Sun May 16, 2010 10:25 am

It is interesting. I have already lost track here (and the abstracts are too abstract for me to process right now), but it was remarked during my Doppler that I have an extraordinary number of thyroid vein collaterals. I have been having an unexplained weight-loss since my latest relapse started a year ago (no remission this time).

I went for blood panels, and my TSH came back at 2.6 (Reference Range is 0.38-5.5). I see nothing about T3, T4, so I am in the dark on that. Everything else was normal except for my total cholesterol (LDL, HDL in the mid-normal range)

I am pretty sure (gut feeling) that my weight loss is connected to impaired venous drainage from my thyroid. I have pretty severe stenosis in both IJVs, so it will be interesting to get another look at TSH after the procedure, and if I start to gain some weight.

I hope I am on-topic - I feel like I'm missing something.
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby cheerleader » Sun May 16, 2010 11:39 am

Johnson--thanks for bumping this thread. It is very important, and you are not missing the point at all. You've got it!

Jugular vein stenosis will probably affect all of the "tributary" veins surrounding them--and those include the emissary veins, which control the body's temperature regulation, and the thyroid veins, which control the release of thyroid hormone. I even postulated on another thread that vitamin D may be getting screwed up because the HPA axis (hypothalmic/pituitary/adrenal) pathway was being messed up, do to delayed signaling and slowed flow....but there are no studies on that yet. The neck veins are responsible for CSF, hormones and blood flow from the brain. Lots going on in there--

Dr. Frohman made a comment in Bologna that has stuck with me...he postulated that perhaps all diseases we currently call autoimmune could be related to slowed venous drainage, if the immune system was indeed just cleaning up the mess from slowed blood- and not randomly going after the self. That made me go, hmmmmm.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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MRI & Thyroid do you get lesions

Postby silverbirch » Sun May 16, 2010 11:44 am

johnson your on topic ....

Im not on any DMD's so I cant blame thyroid problems down to them.

During what was thought to be my stroke ( paralised all of left hand side) I kept complaining of a sore stiff neck on the right hand side and how hard it is , and a red rash on the right under my ear lobe.

Can thyroid problems temp paralise you ?

Can you get lesions from thyroid problems ?

MRI showed 4 they say this was from ms attack and they were fresh/new lesions . Surley if I had ms problems I should have old lesions at the very least scaring . Ive just had another MRI It will be interesting to if ive got more lesions

MS DX on history - mine was Migraines /cysts /hormonal I never had anything else.

my oponion I have more thyroid symptoms.

Can brain surgeons get it wrong maybe I do have ms/thyroid.... really who am I to cross question.
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Postby whyRwehere » Sun May 16, 2010 12:14 pm

I was researching thyroid problems for myself, when I discovered a book by a woman who was originally diagnosed as having MS, but she was able to treat herself (Armour thyroid)and the "MS" disappeared. But, perhaps she is only treating a symptom.
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thyroid link

Postby silverbirch » Sun May 16, 2010 12:43 pm

http://thyroid.about.com/od/hyperthyroi ... gnosis.htm

jimmylegs passed on this link about thyroid graves it makes for good reading Thanks again to jimmylegs

Forum sorry I am terrible at posting links and have been lazy in not sourcing out how to do quotes.
I’m also thinking I’m banging on too much about thyroid from my point and hope that I’ve not monopolised this thread.
I will be more mindful xxxx
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Postby bluesky63 » Sun May 16, 2010 1:30 pm

There are many, many people in my family with type-1 diabetes. I have been trying to research venous drainage in the Islets of Langerhans, since I was curious if this could be a link. Obviously a person can go overboard looking to tie everything together, but what a great potential area of research and treatment!

On an anecdotal note, we also have Hashimoto's thyroiditis in my family.
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Thyroid

Postby eveable » Sun May 16, 2010 2:05 pm

This is interesting. I had CCSVI testing at Barrie Vascular Imaging. I failed number 1, 3 and 5 tests so that gives me 3 out of 5, an abnormal result. They also found nodules in both thyroid glands. I had an ultra sound of the thyroid glands, it found a goitre. Now I have to go for blood tests. I think the solution is to have my internal jugular veins unblocked.
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Re: Thyroid

Postby silverbirch » Sun May 16, 2010 2:33 pm

Eveable wrote
eveable wrote:This is interesting. I had CCSVI testing at Barrie Vascular Imaging. I failed number 1, 3 and 5 tests so that gives me 3 out of 5, an abnormal result. They also found nodules in both thyroid glands. I had an ultra sound of the thyroid glands, it found a goitre. Now I have to go for blood tests. I think the solution is to have my internal jugular veins unblocked.


May I ask have you been DX MS
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