Getting the blood thinned to the theraputic level

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby peekaboo » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:40 am

Dr D contacted my GP after the op and gave him the instructions regarding coumadin and plavix. If I remember he wants the INR to be between 2.5 & 2.8
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Postby mrhodes40 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:48 am

Pro thrombin time is how fast your blood to clots. It is often something like 10 or so if you are a normal untreated person. This means in roughly 10 ish seconds the blood clots up. This is normal and is calculated to an INR of 1. Normal people have a .8-1.2 INR.

When you are on coumadin the goal is to have the clotting slowed down so that you don't form clots so quickly. This preserves the surgical site. A target INR is about 2-2.5 for what we are doing . That means it takes 20 seconds or so for the clot to form and the INR calculates from that number and means essentially that you are clotting in double the time a normal person does.

For some heart issues the target INR is 3-3.5 8O 8O
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Postby Loobie » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:52 am

Thanks guys,

I'll let my dumb ass GP in on the scene. He said he talked to them, but I wonder now.
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:53 am

natural source vitamin E8 complex is a natural blood thinner with K antagonist action like warfarin, but much better for you.

vitamin E deficiency has been associated with loss of position sense. anecdotally, i had lost my position sense after dx, and regained it under my modified klenner regimen, which included vitamin e megadoses.

more recently i have learned that straight alpha tocopherol is bad because it will drive down your cancer protective gamma tocopherol. this effect has been demonstrated in the SELECT study on prostate cancer prevention. (which used selenium and isolated synthetic alpha tocopherol)

sunflower seeds and sunflower oil provide good dietary sources of vitamin e. dietary vitamin e is not associated with toxicity.

high vitamin k foods such as dark leafy greens also have high vitamin e to balance the blood respective clotting and thinning actions of each.
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Postby peekaboo » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:03 pm

skydog wrote:
and the neighbors are saying whoa to too much green. Steady as she goes...


send some my way :D
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Postby Loobie » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:59 am

Hey,

I could always use more 'green' :lol: :lol: . Anyway my saga of drugs continues. I was romping down the primrose path thinking lovonox was just a different type of hep. and then it was laid down on me that not only is it EXTREMELY expensive, you have to do 2 shots a day at the Dr. office; I didn't know it was an injection. Well I start back to work monday so I talked to my Dr. about trying the coumadin again. Since the rash came on when I was just trashed with all kinds of drug interactions and had also spent some time in the sun the day it came on, we are trying it again at 1/2 dose. If you remember, me on one pill had my INR up over 3 so we were going to cut back anyway.

I simply cannot afford the pricetag or the time from lovonox. I still have CVS Caremark calling every three weeks for my last couple of Tysabri infusions that cost me a fortune to try and wring money out of me, and I still haven't received my Stanford bill. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the rash doesn't come back, and if it does I have Benadryl at the ready. It didn't cause any other issues except the skin outbreak. Now that was uncomfortable, but I was also still feeling really sore, had just gotten home. I don't know, I think I'm trying to will it to work, but the work situation is really what's driving this. I HAVE to go back to work or risk not having a job. It really has come down to that and I simply can't afford the shots. So I'm giving it one more go and keeping my fingers crossed. If I break out bad again, I guess I'll just spend more $$ I don't have, but man my head spun when we talked about how much that stuff costs. And since a whole tab was thinning me too much, hopefully the 1/2 dose will not cause the rash.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:33 am

I got a blood clot in my leg so lovonox was discussed for me too, doc told me it is 3500 dollars a MONTH.

they use it in Poland for people at $1 a dose.

Rant: We cannot get health reform unless they MAKE these people sell their medicines for reasonable prices. I know the pharma is not a philanthropic organization so when they sell it to people of Poland for a profit.....1/6 of what we pay :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I too could not afford it it is not covered under my plan......

they ration things already, this is rationing of medical care.
I'm not offering medical advice, I am just a patient too! Talk to your doctor about what is best for you...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-7318-0.html This is my regimen thread
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Postby peekaboo » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:16 am

Marie wrote:
Rant: We cannot get health reform unless they MAKE these people sell their medicines for reasonable prices.


How much profit is appropriate? It will never be enough to the greedy people...more more more it will never happen :twisted:
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:36 am

seriously loobie, consider e8 complex. much cheaper. easy. no rashes.
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Postby Loobie » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:13 am

I will get some today JL!! Thanks.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:26 am

JL interesting idea! since you are recommending an alternative to a serious pharmaceutical, please consider that people reading this later may think that E8 is equal to coumadin.

If it is proven to be so, please link medical literature showing how well it anti coagulated the blood if they have such a reference for this supplement. the prothrombin times, the INR's etc

If they do not have such a thing then I hope people don't get the idea it is the same as taking the coumadin.

That having been said I have a feeling you are suggesting for Lew because it is better than nothing and I agree with that for sure :D
I'm not offering medical advice, I am just a patient too! Talk to your doctor about what is best for you...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-7318-0.html This is my regimen thread
http://www.ccsvibook.com Read my book published by McFarland Health topics
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Postby ErikaSlovakia » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:03 am

mrhodes40 wrote:I got a blood clot in my leg so lovonox was discussed for me too, doc told me it is 3500 dollars a MONTH.

they use it in Poland for people at $1 a dose.

Rant: We cannot get health reform unless they MAKE these people sell their medicines for reasonable prices. I know the pharma is not a philanthropic organization so when they sell it to people of Poland for a profit.....1/6 of what we pay :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I too could not afford it it is not covered under my plan......

they ration things already, this is rationing of medical care.


Hi mrhodes40!
I am from Slovakia, Europe and I just have registered. I can not stop reading this forum. I would like to help you. What is the exact name of the drug you need? If they sell it in Poland so cheap may be it is the same in Slovakia.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:30 pm

Hi and welcome! what a way to introduce yourself, thank you for the thought. I am past the moment of need we worked out another plan, but I really appreciate the kind ness!
marie :D :D
I'm not offering medical advice, I am just a patient too! Talk to your doctor about what is best for you...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-7318-0.html This is my regimen thread
http://www.ccsvibook.com Read my book published by McFarland Health topics
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Postby Terry » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:54 pm

Lew,
Are prescriptions covered by your insurance?
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:22 pm

An adverse vitamin E–vitamin K interaction was reported among patients taking coumarin-based oral anticoagulants, such as warfarin and phenprocoumon (1–3). The mechanism of the apparent enhancement by vitamin E of the action of coumarin is unknown, although Dowd and Zheng (4) proposed a competitive inhibition between tocopherol quinone and the phylloquinone hydroquinone for the vitamin K–dependent -carboxylase. The vitamin K–dependent carboxylase is required for conversion of specific glutamyl residues to -carboxyglutamyl residues in certain proteins, including factors II, VII, IX, and X, and proteins C and S, which are involved in normal hemostatic function (5).

Vitamin E in the reduced, alpha-tocopherol form shows very modest anticlotting activity. By contrast, vitamin E quinone is a potent anticoagulant. This observation may have significance for field trials in which vitamin E is observed to exhibit beneficial effects on ischemic heart disease and stroke. Vitamin E quinone is a potent inhibitor of the vitamin K-dependent carboxylase that controls blood clotting. A newly discovered mechanism for the inhibition requires attachment of the active site thiol groups of the carboxylase to one or more methyl groups on vitamin E quinone. The results from a series of model reactions support this interpretation of the anticlotting activity associated with vitamin E.

From numerous publications on the "prophylactic" and "therapeutic" use of vitamin E, it may be concluded that the toxicity of vitamin E is very low. It has been demonstrated in animal experiments that vitamin E has neither mutagenic, teratogenic nor carcinogenic properties. Based on studies in humans, a daily dosage of 100-300 mg vitamin E can be considered harmless from a toxicological point of view. Using double-blind studies involving a large number of subjects, it has been demonstrated that large oral doses of up to 3,200 USP-Units/day led to no consistent adverse effects. From a large body of published data, dosage ranges have been deduced which can be characterized as safe for human subjects even where their use extends over a long period of time. It should, however, be noted that oral intake of high levels of vitamin E can exacerbate the blood coagulation defect of vitamin K deficiency caused by malabsorption or anticoagulant therapy. High levels of vitamin E intake are, therefore, contraindicated in these subjects.

Rats rendered lightly vitamin K deficient with warfarin (0.01 mg/100 g, IP) and given the equivalent of 1000 units of vitamin E/kg IM for 7 days, showed a marked reduction in functional factor II activity, but normal factor II levels using Echis venom on coagulation analysis. In 12 humans receiving warfarin, vitamin E was administered in doses of 100 or 400 units/day orally for 4 wk. The results in these patients showed no significant change in the prothrombin time, factor II coagulant activity, or factor II antigen (by electroimmunoassay). However, by using a ratio of factor II coagulant activity to immunoreactive protein, significant reduction was observed when compared to pretreatment ratios. These data suggest that vitamin E acts at the step mediated by vitamin K and not in the synthesis of the factor II precursor. Although the administration of high doses of vitamin E in animals, and possibly humans, with vitamin K deficiency potentiates the vitamin K deficiency, this effect is not clinically obvious with 400 IU/day or less.

In this study, we investigated whether vitamin E at concentrations achievable in blood after supplementation inhibits platelet function in humans. Gel-filtered platelets were incubated 30 minutes with scalar concentrations (50 to 250 mmol/L) of vitamin E and then stimulated with collagen. Compared with controls, vitamin E inhibited collagen-induced platelet aggregation and thromboxane A2 formation in a dose-dependent manner. Furthermore, vitamin E inhibited, in a dose-dependent manner, Ca2+ mobilization and formation of inositol 1,4,5-triphosphate. Because it was previously shown that hydrogen peroxide formation mediates arachidonic acid metabolism and phospholipase C activation in collagen-induced platelet activation, we investigated whether vitamin E was able to blunt hydrogen peroxide. In experiments performed in unstimulated platelets supplemented with hydrogen peroxide and in collagen-stimulated platelets, vitamin E was able to blunt hydrogen peroxide. In 6 healthy subjects given vitamin E for 2 weeks (600 mg/d), we found a significant decrease of collagen-induced H2O2 formation, platelet aggregation, and calcium mobilization. This study demonstrated in vitro and ex vivo that vitamin E inhibits collagen-induced platelet activation by blunting hydrogen peroxide formation.

A review of the literature concerning the safety of oral intake of vitamin E indicated that the toxicity of vitamin E is low. Vitamin E supplementation has resulted in inconsistent effects in serum lipid and lipoprotein levels. Animal studies showed that vitamin E is not mutagenic, carcinogenic, or teratogenic. In human studies with double- blind protocols and in large population studies, oral vitamin E supplementation resulted in few side effects even at doses as high as 3200 mg/d (3200 IU/d).

when you're on warfarin, it works so especially well that you need to keep your doctor in the loop. there are studies that say vitamin e doesn't really change anything, but they are talking about isolated and probably synthetic alpha tocopherol, not the e8 complex.
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