Skepticism or ignorance?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:33 pm

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Postby CureIous » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:45 pm

:)
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RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Re: Skepticism or ignorance?

Postby patientx » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:41 am

GiCi wrote:Skepticism is certainly useful, especially in the clinical field, because it avoids unjustified enthusiasm for unproven theories.
Skeptics about the endovascular treatment of MS should probably bother to read the papers published by prof. Zamboni and his team. It seems to me an unlikely coincidence that they found a defective venous drainage from the brain, due to congenital anomalies of the jugular and/or the azygos veins, in 100% of the patients with proven MS. No such anomalies were found in the control group of healthy persons or patients with other neurological conditions. The first man who said that the earth was not flat was put in chains.
I am off to Bologna and I hope that subsequently more people will believe that the earth is a sphere.
GiCi


I'm not sure which skeptics you mean, people like here at this website or dismissive doctors. You have seen some great immediate results, and I think we are all glad for you. Also, it would indicate this treatment holds promise.

I think you mentioned that you are a doctor, so step back a moment and look at this through your doctor eyes. Dr. Zamboni published a few papers detailing the correlation between the stenosis and MS. So far, no one else has published with the same findings, providing some confirmation. (And, according to reports from members here who have gone to Stanford, Dr. Dake is finding a somewhat different pattern of stenosis. For example, he is finding far fewer stenoses of the azygous). Also, Dr. Zamboni put out one paper describing the first patients that were treated with angioplasty. But no MRIs were done; no criteria for determining who was suffering a relapse was given. Just my opinion, but I think these things add to doctors' skepticism.

Hopefully more details of Dr. Zamboni's work will emerge from the Bologna conference. Here's hoping he finds the New World.
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:39 am

He made his introduction earlier, and no china was broken....

too bad about his second
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:43 am

Personally I find the ridiculing and bashing by TIMS members of someone who has been through the interventional procedure and benefited from it offensive.


i find all the attitude and hyperbole and no more sense of humour on this site offensive
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Postby chrishasms » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:59 am

123
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Postby dignan » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:01 am

OK, I'm going to write this, then dive into the nearest fox-hole to take cover.

On one hand, the "skeptics" are saying that CCSVI looks like something with great potential, but more work is needed. I haven't seen any comments from TIMS members saying they think CCSVI is a crock. I might have missed something though...

On the other hand, those taking action on CCSVI take the comments of the skeptics as personal attacks because they have seen enough evidence to convince them to undergo a significant surgical procedure and to say that more evidence is needed is, in a way, calling their judgement into question.
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Postby daniel » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:31 am

dignan wrote:OK, I'm going to write this, then dive into the nearest fox-hole to take cover.

On one hand, the "skeptics" are saying that CCSVI looks like something with great potential, but more work is needed. I haven't seen any comments from TIMS members saying they think CCSVI is a crock. I might have missed something though...

On the other hand, those taking action on CCSVI take the comments of the skeptics as personal attacks because they have seen enough evidence to convince them to undergo a significant surgical procedure and to say that more evidence is needed is, in a way, calling their judgement into question.


If I could up-vote this post I would. Can we all just agree that CCSVI looks very promising to some people and that we all want more research to be done to look into it further?
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Postby Loobie » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:54 am

From someone who's had it done; I want that too!
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Postby catfreak » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:50 am

Me Too!!

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Holly - Shine On You Crazy Diamond - Pink Floyd

9/3/09 Stanford - Dr Dake - Stent in R-J to unblock Arachnoid Cyst in Sigmoid Sinus. Stent in narrowed L-J. Balloon in narrowing where R & L Jugulars meet.
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Postby Sharon » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:53 am

If I could up-vote this post I would. Can we all just agree that CCSVI looks very promising to some people and that we all want more research to be done to look into it further?


EXACTLY!! And, we all know that there is going to be more research.

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Postby Loobie » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:05 pm

...but hopefully not on mice with EAE.....
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Postby daniel » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:22 pm

Loobie wrote:...but hopefully not on mice with EAE.....


Unless they can find a way to convert our MS into EAE, then all the research would be suddenly worthwhile! ;)
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Postby Loobie » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:37 pm

Then we could all just get cured with Copaxone!
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Postby chrishasms » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:56 pm

123
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