Skepticism or ignorance?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Skepticism or ignorance?

Postby GiCi » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:40 am

Skepticism is certainly useful, especially in the clinical field, because it avoids unjustified enthusiasm for unproven theories.
Skeptics about the endovascular treatment of MS should probably bother to read the papers published by prof. Zamboni and his team. It seems to me an unlikely coincidence that they found a defective venous drainage from the brain, due to congenital anomalies of the jugular and/or the azygos veins, in 100% of the patients with proven MS. No such anomalies were found in the control group of healthy persons or patients with other neurological conditions. The first man who said that the earth was not flat was put in chains.
I am off to Bologna and I hope that subsequently more people will believe that the earth is a sphere.
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:24 pm

um, welcome to TIMS?
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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:46 pm

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Postby mose » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:09 pm

skepticism, completely appropriate skepticism.

Believe that if there is fire behind the not-insubstantial CCSVI smoke, 1,000,000 skeptics with 1,000,000 thumbs in 1,000,000 dikes won't be able to stop the flood that will be a comin'. They won't even be able to delay it.
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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:23 pm

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Postby whyRwehere » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:33 pm

It's all in the way it is done. Called technique.
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Postby catfreak » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:37 pm

Welcome CiGi,

We here at TIMS welcome, appreciate and respect ALL opinions whether we agree or disagree or agree to disagree.... please don't bash anybody that is skeptical or has a differing opinion. Ignorance is a very harsh word.
8O 8O

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Holly - Shine On You Crazy Diamond - Pink Floyd

9/3/09 Stanford - Dr Dake - Stent in R-J to unblock Arachnoid Cyst in Sigmoid Sinus. Stent in narrowed L-J. Balloon in narrowing where R & L Jugulars meet.
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Postby Sharon » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:38 pm

Lyon wrote:
That isn't to hint that CCSVI will never prove itself but it's only truthful to state that it hasn't been proven that: GiCi wrote:
congenital anomalies of the jugular and/or the azygos veins, in 100% of the patients with proven MS. No such anomalies were found in the control group of healthy persons or patients with other neurological conditions.
and although it seems nothing more than common sense to eliminate found stenosis, it remains to be proven that eliminating the stenosis offers any health benefits


Bob - did you read Zamboni's paper? What do you mean by "it's only truthful to state that it hasn't been proven"? 100% of the clinically diagnosed MS'rs in Zamboni's research had stenosis. What do you want for proof?
I will agree with you that it remains to be proven that eliminating the stenosis offers health benefits. Let's wait till the Bologna symposium...I hope Zamboni has the proof for you. And, I hope that in four months or six months, I personally have the proof for you. (I know, you are going to say mine is anectdotal and it doesn't count) We shall see :roll:

Welcome GiCi -
I am off to Bologna and I hope that subsequently more people will believe that the earth is a sphere.

Safe travels. Please update the forum - don't worry about the people who are skeptics...there are always a few in every crowd.
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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:47 pm

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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:50 pm

Thanks JL!
I've been trying my hardest not to go there Twisted Evil !

huh? did i go somewhere?
i was just trying to imply that we should remember the 'big picture'.
i hope no-one took it the wrong way.
0; ) (winking angel)
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Postby Rokkit » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:23 pm

Given that Dake is seeing stenosis in self-selected patient after patient, I believe that what Zamboni has found is real. I realize my believing it doesn't prove it, and that there is still some possibility that even the apparent correlation between MS and stenosis could end up discredited. But from where we are right now, that part of it looks pretty solid.

Whether stenosis causes MS and whether treating stenosis will help MS is much less clear. I don't think anyone on either side of this issue should call the other side ignorant. On this point, at this point, we're all ignorant.

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Postby Shayk » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:25 pm

Welcome GiCi

Have a great time in Bologna.

Personally I find the ridiculing and bashing by TIMS members of someone who has been through the interventional procedure and benefited from it offensive.

There is a place for skepticism and there's even a thread for it--it makes sense to me for the skeptics to post the evidence against CCSVI there.

Cat--best to you too.

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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:49 pm

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Postby Shayk » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:18 pm

Bob wrote:
If you're going to make the statement that someone has benefited from CCSVI, asking you to prove it is within the realm of objective reasoning.

I agree.

GiCI wrote:
I experienced an immediate benefit: I was taller, the strength in both lower limbs improved, and so did bladder and bowel control. I could stop using Viagra.

I believe GiCi wrote an honest account of the experience--that's my "proof".

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Postby cheerleader » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:22 pm

Here is GiCi's first post.
He made his introduction earlier, and no china was broken....


I am a 63 year old Italian consultant cardiac surgeon working full time in Belfast since 1993. I was diagnosed wirh chronic progressive MS in 1986. It started with spasticity and progressive weakness of the lower limbs, more marked on the right side. It affected my ability to walk and control of bladder and bowels became a problem, in addition to erectile disfunction. When I met prof. Zamboni two years ago I walked with a stick, 200 yards seemed an unsormountable distance, and fatigue and back pain were a real problem. I met his wonderful team, Erika a very skillful sonographer, Annamaria competent and lovely researcher in functional assessment, and Dr. Roberto Galeotti, a skillfull interventional radiologist. In brief, Ultrasounds showed obstruction of the venous drainage from the brain at the jugular veins level, this was confirmed at angiography showing 95% stenosis of the left jugular vein and an inverted valve in the right jugular vein. Dilatation of both sites with a balloon was carried out during the same session. I experienced an immediate benefit: I was taller, the strength in both lower limbs improved, and so did bladder and bowel control. I could stop using Viagra.
I read all the papers that Zamboni and his team have published so far and from the first one I believed that he had made the first real breakthrough in the understanding the etiology of MS.
Now I have notice a slight deterioration of my condition, although I am still a lot better than before having the procedure. A check-up with Zamboni a month ago showed that the flow in the left jugular vein is still ok but there is reflux in the left one: the plan is either a further dilatation or surgery. This shows a strict correlation between venous drainage from the brain and symptoms.
Zamboni invited me to take part in the press release during the international congress on CCSVI in Bologna in September: I look forward to sharing my experience with others. I am very proud to share with Zamboni the place of birth (I am from Ferrara) and I know that his idea will change the destiny of thousand of MS sufferers. I hope that the medical profession will hopen his eyes soon.



See you in Bologna, GiCi-
over and out,
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