Horse Chestnut??

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Horse Chestnut??

Postby jay123 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:21 pm

My wife just had some varicose veins fixed up. The doctor suggested she start taking 'horse chestnut extract', that it is tremendous for veins and he feels even works as good as the compression stockings that she is also supposed to use.
Just wondering if it might not be a bad supplement to use..

"The herb horse chestnut (Aesculus hippocastanum) is one of the most widely used natural treatments for varicose veins and chronic venous insufficiency, a related condition.

The active constituent in horse chestnut is a compound called aescin. Aescin appears to block the release of enzymes that damage capillary walls.

In 2006, researchers with the respected Cochrane Collaboration reviewed studies involving the use of oral horse chestnut extract or placebo for people with chronic venous insufficiency.

The researchers found an improvement in the signs and symptoms of chronic venous insufficiency with horse chestnut extract compared with placebo. Horse chestnut extract resulted in a significant reduction in leg pain and swelling compared with a placebo."
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Postby gibbledygook » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:20 am

I experimented with moderate dosages of horsechestnut alone ( a few grams a day) and initially it was great but then I had a relapse with a brand new symptom. I'd make sure you take a vasodilator with horsechestnut like ginkgo or salvia.
3 years antibiotics, 06/09 bilateral jug stents at C1, 05/11 ballooning of both jug valves, 07/12 stenting of renal vein, azygos & jug valve ballooning,
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Postby jay123 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:25 am

Great research links!
BTW, I didn't mean this as an alternative to surgery but rather as a supplemental treatment. It appears that the CCSVI problem is a little more complex than some spider veins!
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Horse Chestnut compression hose etc.

Postby Boopieup » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:05 am

My general surgeon told me to wear compression hose and told me to walk for venous insufficiency in the legs. I don't have varicose veins. I bought the hose and tried wearing them. They aren't long enough for a 36" inseam, they got runs in them easily since I had to stretch the heck out of them (they are Juzo brand), and caused the blood to sit around my ankles if I put my feet on the floor at all causing more pain. I stopped wearing them and elevate my feet pretty much all day and night. The only time my feet hit the floor is when I transfer to the potty chair from the bed. My legs and feet turn deep purple when on the floor for more than a minute.

I take ginko 2 weeks before the recorded first day of the period. That helps a lot with my PMS. Should I be taking it all month? Andrew told me to get horse chestnut. I'm wondering what mg to get.

I do take LDN 3 mg.

Any suggestions on this would be greatly helpful. Thanks ya'll

Sharon
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Postby jay123 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:41 am

The key is whatever brand you buy you want at least 50-60 mg of Aescin as part of the extract. Most directions will then tell you to take 1 of these twice a day.
My wife bought a bottle (I think 100 pills) at GNC for around $12, I'm sure you can find them cheaper elsewhere.
Her leg vein expert definitely recommends them for the legs.
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Postby Sneaky » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:27 am

Went out and picked some up today. Since I've always felt what's going on with me is vascular, figured it can't hurt.

also, a quick question... Now, I don't have vericose veins, but around my ribcage and I have spider veins - anyone else?
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Postby cheerleader » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:38 am

I've said this before, but can I just repeat that the problem in the jugulars and azygos is very different from those in the leg veins for two reasons:
1. the leg veins need to push against gravity to get the blood back to the heart. The neck veins do not need to push.
2. varicose veins are usually swollen and distended. In CCSVI the veins are actually blocked with stenosis. It's a different situation-

Here's how horse chestnut works:

HCSE works in multiple ways to support the health of your capillaries and veins. It is a direct tonic substance for veins and valves, a source of nourishment that enhances their structure. It has been shown to close small gaps in veins that allow fluid leakage that contributes to edema. In addition to its structural support for veins and values it has a regulating function relating to both capillaries and veins that involves ion channels and the flow of calcium in particular. Its actions are unique and fascinating.

On the one hand HCSE relaxes the endothelial lining of capillaries, enhancing friendly nitric oxide production, and reducing inflammation. This generally supports lower pressure or push coming from the arteries (lower general blood pressure). It also helps seal up capillaries that leak too much water into the tissues, helping to reduce edema. On the other hand, while assisting the structural integrity of veins and valves, it increases the pressure in veins so they can pump blood more efficiently against gravity (as opposed to the relaxing effect it has on capillaries). It also helps improve flow through the closely related lymphatic system, another pressure system that can get backed up and cause problems for circulation. This is a unique combination of beneficial actions that are helpful to lower leg circulation.

link
It is this action of increasing pressure which I believe is contraindicated in CCSVI. Just FYI-
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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maybe..

Postby jay123 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:04 am

Cheer - you might very well be right (I really respect everything you have done for ccsvi and the advice you gave me!) but I was looking at the one portion of the article you quoted -
" On the other hand, while assisting the structural integrity of veins and valves,...".
I might be wrong and I did just throw the HCE out due to what the doctor told my wife for her legs, but my thought was anything that promotes the integrity of the veins and valves should be a good thing.

Once you start looking at these supplements (and even for that matter any drugs) who know's whats right and wrong!
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Postby cheerleader » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:11 am

gibbledygook wrote:I experimented with moderate dosages of horsechestnut alone ( a few grams a day) and initially it was great but then I had a relapse with a brand new symptom. I'd make sure you take a vasodilator with horsechestnut like ginkgo or salvia.


Alex is on to something...if you want to use this supplement, a thinner like ginko, salvia, curcumin etc would be a good idea to go with. Exercise, sunshine, laughter, fresh fruits and veg are also good for healing endothelial disfunction.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: maybe..

Postby Sneaky » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:08 pm

jay123 wrote:Cheer - you might very well be right (I really respect everything you have done for ccsvi and the advice you gave me!) but I was looking at the one portion of the article you quoted -
" On the other hand, while assisting the structural integrity of veins and valves,...".


Totally agree, and I still feel like it wouldn't hurt in moderation, no?? I mean after all there really isn't anything out for vein / ciculation as far as supplements go and who knows, this all can be one big cause & effect scenerio.
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:50 am

I too tried Horse chestnut around the same time as gibbledy and I also had a relapse and increase in symptoms around that time. I was also taking aspirin occasionally but all I know is that HC did make me worse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concussus Resurgo
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RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
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Copaxone, Cymbalta. EPO, Fish Oils, Vitamin D3 2000 IU daily, Cal/Mag/Zinc, Multivitamin/mineral, Co-Enzyme Q10, Probiotics, Milk Thistle.
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Postby gibbledygook » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:50 am

Yeah, I would only take horsechestnut IF you are also taking ginkgo or salvia at the same time and in fact i would probably just stick to the dilators. You really don't want to constrict a constriction!!
3 years antibiotics, 06/09 bilateral jug stents at C1, 05/11 ballooning of both jug valves, 07/12 stenting of renal vein, azygos & jug valve ballooning,
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