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A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby vendredi5h » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:53 am

Hello Sharon, thanks to reply.
Sharon wrote:Dr. Zamboni's work has shown the progression to have stopped over a short 1-2 year time period -- because the research is relatively new, there is no long term data.

On the website you gave me, I've only found one paper talking about MS progression in relation with the liberation procedure:
Zamboni wrote:Rate of relapse in the year subsequent to the endovascular procedure as compared to the rate regestered in the same population in the preceding year. The probability of acut attack decreased more then 4-fold after the endovascular treatment.

But in the graph that follow this comment, titled "Rate of Pre-postoperative Relapse", we see values of 41% Pre and 25% Post. Where is the 4-fold in that? And what do you think is the 41% Pre? 41% of the 33 person had acute relapse in the previous year?

And in this paper, he doesn't seem to have used stants, only ballouning. Is there any newer stats or result? Did I miss something on the Hilarescere fondation website?

I realise that I'm squatting Loobie's topic! Should I ask somewhere else or create a new topic?

Yannick
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Postby Loobie » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:32 am

If you are gaining valuable information, feel free to stomp on my topic! Anyway, anyhow, you get information to help you make a decision. No problem here!
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Postby mrhodes40 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:40 am

But in the graph that follow this comment, titled "Rate of Pre-postoperative Relapse", we see values of 41% Pre and 25% Post. Where is the 4-fold in that?


That part of that paper is confusing because it looks like someone messed up somewhere...

...but it turns out that the simple bar graph and the comments are not discussing the same data. The actual paper will make it clear. It will be available pretty soon. :D

Rest assured that researchers do these kinds of statistical analyses all the time they know what they are doing when it comes to calculating their results, they'd never get a paper published if they could not do that correctly
I'm not offering medical advice, I am just a patient too! Talk to your doctor about what is best for you...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-7318-0.html This is my regimen thread
http://www.ccsvibook.com Read my book published by McFarland Health topics
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Postby jay123 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:21 pm

Remember Dr. Zamboni only used ballooning and it appears as though doing that in veins is not a long term solution, the veins will probably need to be re-done after a period of time. Perhaps this is the cause of relapses after a period of time.
Dr. Dake uses stents which should stay open, but they have only been used on these veins for the last 6 months so no long term data is available yet.
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Postby Sharon » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:51 pm

Yannick -

I believe Marie has anwered your question about the graph and the statistics.

Now, you wrote
And in this paper, he doesn't seem to have used stants, only ballouning. Is there any newer stats or result? Did I miss something on the Hilarescere fondation website?


You are correct--Zamboni has only used ballooning. He will be reporting (we hope by the end of the year) on more recent data. Dake is using stents ---- he has not published data on the use of stents.

Sharon
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Postby vendredi5h » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:13 am

Hi everybody,

Thanks all for you comments.
mrhodes40 wrote:The actual paper will make it clear. It will be available pretty soon. :D
Sharon wrote:He will be reporting (we hope by the end of the year) on more recent data.
From where is this information comming? Is it from direct contact between TIMS members and Dr Zamboni and/or Dake? Or this information on the futur paper release is somewhere on the web?

Another more subjective point. Do you personnaly think it is game over for MS?

Yannick
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Postby radeck » Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:32 am

Yannick, because the name "MS" was simply given to a bunch of symptoms (neurological issues, lesions, CSF measures, etc), none of which are specific, it does not really compete with CCSVI, as your question may make it sound. It was never known what causes the auto-immune response in MS, but there were theories. CCSVI is one such theory. To me personally, it may offer a sensible explanation.

People here are often writing as if there's a competition CCSVI versus auto-immune-theory=MS, but this confuses the facts.

Concerning your question about the forthcoming Zamboni et al. work, the abstract is posted here: http://docente.unife.it/paolo.zamboni/p ... 3691#33691

and rumor has it that it will appear on Nov 24. Hope this helps.
Last edited by radeck on Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby vendredi5h » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:26 pm

Radeck,

I didn't talk about the term as much as the disease. Do you think in a couple of year, someone newly diagnosed with MS, will be told:
"Ok, we've got the results. You've got MS. That's good news. We'll have to expend some veins in the coming weeks and the problem will be solved. Sorry for your numbed hand. It may or may not completely recover but for the rest you'll be just fine."

That would be cool! :D

Yannick
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Postby Sharon » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:37 pm

Yannick -

The research on CCSVI is just beginning. Dr. Zamboni has said that it will take 10,000 research papers to prove that CCSVI is the cause of MS. This is probably a bit of an exaggeration, but the statement makes his point. If the initial studies prove out, the MS story is going to have to be rewritten. There will be so many unanswered questions which a blocked vein does not answer. There have been volumes of research looking at MS as an inflammation due to viruses, germs, environmental factors, etc., etc. The old research is either going to be disproven or it is going to be thrown out........ We are in the "preface" of a book -- chapter one has yet to be outlined.

Keep tuned! :) :)
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