Zombie Science

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby Rieja » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:33 pm

1."Cardio"
2."Double tap/Ziploc bags (Deleted Scene)"
3."Beware of bathrooms"
4."Wear seatbelts"
6."Cast iron skillet"
7."Travel light"
8."Get a kickass partner"
12."Bounty paper towels"
15."Bowling Ball"
17."(Don't) be a hero"
18."Limber up"
21."Avoid strip clubs"
22."When in doubt, know your way out"
29."The buddy system"
31."Check the back seat"
32."Enjoy the little things"
33."Swiss army knife"
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Postby cheerleader » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:37 am

Here's an explanation of why the autoimmune theory of MS is plain, old zombie science. Written on another thread by the woman who helped me understand Dr. Zamboni's discovery back in '08. She is now under contract with a publisher, writing a book on CCSVI. She sums it up better than anyone. I consider Marie to be leader of the zombie hunters...and like #29 (thanks, Rieja!) on the list to survive in Zombieland--we all need our buddies. Thanks, Marie. I sure miss you 'round here.

fact there is no proof that MS is autoimmune.

There are myelin active T cells................ but there are myelin active T cells in any kind of trauma to the brain, spinal cord injury and stroke both have large increases in myelin active T cells.

Ongoing trauma would result in ongoing myelin active T cells.

Oligoclonal bands are also not specific to MS.

The most recent research on the cutting edge in multiple sclerosis is done Barnett et al in 2009 and they confirm yet again that the oligodendrocytes died when there are no immune cells at all in the area.(their first paper was in 04)

It appears that the macrophage that goes into the lesion area -- so frequently offered as "proof" that MS is autoimmune-- is actually there to clean up the oligodendrocyte that died first.

Such activity by the immune system is a normal reaction to damage.

When I say "it appears" that's a fact. No one has disputed the Barnett et al research however and there is no counter research, but theoretically you can apparently still find a way for autoimmunity to be part of this process that appears to be normal immune reactivity.

Dr. prineas himself in an interview with the Australian multiple sclerosis society after he received the Charcot award mentioned that he thought perhaps the oligodendrocytes could have died as a result of "standby damage" such as what is seen in Devic disease.

In Devic disease, the astrocytes is attacked by a very specific cell but the oligodendrocyte ends up dying as a side effect of that.

Dr. Prineas was wondering if there is some factor in the serum that causes the oligodendrocyte to die, then the immune system goes in to clean up starting the whole process that we have always been told is MS but with this other as yet undescribed and theoretical factor in the serum as the real culprit in MS.

in this case it is an elaborate Rube Goldberg type of deal that they have no idea what the first event was.

Is it possible it is hypoxic damage caused by venous insufficiency that is the first event?

I have been waiting for Prineas to say what he thinks. I wrote to Barnett at his public email about 12 months ago and got a one sentence response of no he didn't see how veins could have anything to do with MS....

it is a lot to get your head around when you never ever read any research in the field of venous insufficiency. If not, you cannot know how it triggers immune system activity that damages the tissue and is very VERY similar to MS immune system activity, and instead you just think of venous insufficiency as vericose veins that make ankles puff up.

Of course puffy ankles seem ridiculously unrelated to anything like MS which is viewed as orders of magnitude more complex.

The problem is specialization and clique-ish medical specialties.

I am writing a book it is under contract already. It is about 300 pages and is about all this stuff and nearly done.

I am never here any more because I am darned busy........


The neurologists keep reanimating the autoimmune theory. Because they can make drugs that get rid of EAE in mice. Sadly, they cannot make drugs that get rid of MS in people. But that doesn't stop them.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results. Time to kill the zombies.
cheer
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http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby ozarkcanoer » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:59 am

Cheerleader,

I can't wait for Marie's book !!! This is good news. I hope she is also ready to write the sequel in a couple of years (I hope it is no more than a couple of years) when this CCSVI story will be further advanced. Every scrap of news is good and a book is great while I wait like a zombie myself for the next attack of headaches that rule my life. I am still hoping to get some action here at home in St Louis. I don't know if Wash U will do a CCSVI study without NMSS funds. I am still waiting to find out.

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Postby concerned » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:01 am

Maybe the stuff about killing Zombies is a little extreme though, considering people have harrassed people, tried to ruin their jobs, etc.

Unless you support that kind of thing....LIBERATION BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!!!! (I support those kinds of things, just in a completely different context.)
Last edited by concerned on Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby scorpion » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:38 am

When a theory stands on shaky ground people will go to any length to make it more believable. If CCSVI causes MS or leads to an increase in disabilty it is TIME to prove it with science not by posting articles calling the immune theory "zombie science". It is time to stop painting neuros as infidels and drug companies as evil empires in order to validate CCSVI. Since i was diagnosed with MS it has become clear to me there is a small minority of neuros/doctors who do not buy into the immune sysytem theory but posting an article by one of them, once again, does not make CCSVI more real. PROVE to me with logic and scientific testing that CCSVI is real and not by devaluing people and theories. Since apparently Zamboni has the only sure fire way to find CCSVI(red flag in my opinion) I plea to researchers to use his established protocols so that this thing can either be proven or disproven in a scientific manner.
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Postby costumenastional » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:48 am

cheerleader wrote:Time to kill the zombies.


you ll need all the help you can get there friend. i wish i had a nuke to lend to you...
also, you dont have to prove anything to anyone. your posts are valuable thought stimulators for anyone who can use em. please, keep helping.
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Postby cheerleader » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:25 pm

Whoa....
I'm referring to the science as the zombies, not actual human beings. Yikes! Thought I'd better clarify. I'm a total pacifist....member of Sarah Brady's commission for handgun control and follower of Jesus (the turn the other cheek guy) I would never make a threat against another person. Ever.

This thread was started because of a paper Thomas posted regarding Zombie science LAST YEAR---I found the analogy amusing. The idea that a scientific THEORY (such as the autoimmune theory of MS) could be kept alive by funneling money and research. The neuros are human beings. I believe the theory they are re-animating with new drugs to cure EAE in mice is what needs to be put to rest. Hope that clears up any confusion.

I believe the autoimmune theory has been on shaky ground for many years...which is why half-baked and incomplete research is being rushed into the Annals of Neurology. Many, many vascular doctors have replicated Dr. Zamboni's findings...Simka, Dake, Sclafani, McDonald, Beelen, Siskin, Hubbard, Haacke etc....their papers haven't been rushed into publication, because they are not in a hurry to stop this new research.
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Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby mshusband » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:35 pm

It's funny how you often see the same few names post one right after the other in the same thread ... I can think of about 3 or 4 names like that.

Like a bat symbol goes out across the sky wherever and they run to the computer to see what the other posted and then post in the same manner on the topic.

Funny how that works ... :roll:
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Postby costumenastional » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:35 pm

maybe i should change my nick to msbatman then :)

i dont know about Cheer, but last time i checked, science was being performed by human beings. and i really wish i had a nuclear warhead at my disposal. i could prevent one doctor from being shut down or two...
in general, i would do anything in order for more research to happen. if this is too bad, i guess i am a bad person. i can live with that anyway ;)

got to go! i can see the bat up in the night sky haha
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Postby concerned » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:53 pm

mshusband wrote:It's funny how you often see the same few names post one right after the other in the same thread ... I can think of about 3 or 4 names like that.

Like a bat symbol goes out across the sky wherever and they run to the computer to see what the other posted and then post in the same manner on the topic.
Funny how that works ... :roll:


Funny how you said I'm not worth your time, but you still seem to be obsessed with me. :roll:
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Postby tazbo » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:18 pm

I wonder if p.m.'s were used to vent to a particular person, would it maybe better serve the intent of the thread, or is a published personal battle serving some other purpose?
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Postby concerned » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:25 pm

Maybe if certain parties would stop always trying to make personal battles (especially randomly in other threads where none of that "ilk" had even posted (see: http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-12349.html)), it wouldn't be such a problem.


But that's just my opinion.
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Postby cheerleader » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:40 pm

So, back to the paper....

When a new theory is launched upon the population of scientists, it is unlikely to win converts unless the early-adopters are rewarded in a fairly
obvious fashion – usually with a greater chance of generous research funding, the opportunity to publish in prestigious journals (plus a raft of new second-string specialist journals – to provide a home for the more modest and less-important papers), and the hope of increased status


We've seen this hurdle in Dr. Zamboni's research. There are no rewards for the early adopters, no big research money, no publication in prestigious journals -- only disdain from the neurological community and disgrace (in the Wall Street Journal, neurological conventions and their own universities.)

And anyway, there are massive ‘sunk costs’ associated with the phoney theory including the reputations of numerous scientists who are now successful and powerful on the back of the phoney theory, and who by-now control the peer review process (including allocation of grants, publications and jobs) so there is a powerful disincentive against upsetting the apple cart.


And we've witnessed this as the NMSS monies in Canada and the US were awarded to neurological insiders--doctors who have a long history with the NMMS- while the Annals of Neurology publishes studies and opinion pieces by these very same doctors who set out to undermine this new theory.

I was VERY pleased to see that Dr. Bruce Charlton, the writer of this paper, knows about CCSVI and commented on it...googling his name and came across this blog--- look at the comments.
link to blog

cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby concerned » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:25 pm

Cheer- I didn't mean that you were advocating shooting people or anything, just that use of language like "Zombies" (or subhumans, or a whole whack of probably more offensive ones that I don't care to list) carries with it implicit meanings which have a tendency towards the dehumanization of whatever "them" the perjorative word was aimed at.

That kind of thinking can lead down the wrong path is all, and anecdotal reports indicate it has somewhat already.
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Postby scorpion » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:27 pm

Zamboni the quintessential underdog. Everyone loves the underdog,right? There are rewards for early adopters if their research and theories can be validated by other researchers. This complaining about pharmas, NMSS, neuros, the four amigos, etc. has grown tiresome. The studies to prove or disapprove his results are taking place just like everyone wanted and the last two were not very convincing. Regardless of the disdain and disgrace researchers may face if their theory is valid it will be proven.
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