Known Risks/Complications of Angioplasty and Venous Stenting

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby fletchdaf » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:12 pm

cheerleader wrote:... the mortality rate you state is that angioplasty in the arteries is used in cardiac patients who have clotting, thrombosis, blood pressure and coronary arterial disease.


Yes, I noted as much in my analysis and agree with the logic of the position. I'd hoped that had been clear in my little post.

cheerleader wrote:In other words, their hearts an these venous procedures to go by- and they are not analogous to arterial angioplasty.


I would like more information on this statement. Dr. Zamboni appears to be under the impression the procedure is an angioplasty without stints. I am now reviewing the patients' statements in another thread on this forum where the posters describe their procedure and it sounds like angioplasty.

What is the difference (and I ask because I truly don't know)? Should I direct my research elsewhere?

Do you happen to have Dr Zamboni's raw data on the 60+ MS patients he did the procedure on in the last couple of years? I sure would like to review that.

Thanks for your comments.
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Postby cheerleader » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:35 pm

Fletch- The difference is between "arterial" angioplasty and "venous" angioplasty. Arteries vs. veins. There really hasn't been alot of venous angioplasty done (only in really sick people with liver or kidney disease.)

The cardiac/arterial disease angioplasty and venous stenosis angioplasty are not analogous- because heart patients have a larger risk of clotting, heart attacks, etc. Venous angioplasty in MS patients typically does not have those factors. Their blood is typically not thrombotic, their hearts are healthy...it's usually a congenital malformation that has made the veins twisted or mangled or valves upside down or closed. Do you see the difference? I hope I'm being clear.
The Liberation procedure paper with data on the MS patients treated with venous angioplasty will be online tomorrow-
thanks!
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby ozarkcanoer » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:55 pm

cheerleader, There is a NEW terminology we should be using. You said it. CCSVI patients get venous angioplasty, not arterial angioplasty. A whole new ball game. :D :D

So the research needs to do two things :

1. Demonstrate the correlation of CCSVI with MS with studies like the one at Buffalo; and

2. Determine safe and effective venous angioplasty and/or stenting practices in all the different presentations of venous stenosis and malformation.
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Postby fletchdaf » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:17 pm

cheerleader wrote:Fletch-please don't take offense.


Offense? No, no, not at all. You've taken time out to point out flaws in my thinking\research\understanding. You are doing me a favor. Thank you.

My name is Dennis, BTW. I'm from Calgary, Canada.

cheerleader wrote:The difference is between "arterial" angioplasty and "venous" angioplasty ... There really hasn't been alot of venous angioplasty done (only in really sick people with liver or kidney disease.)
...
Do you see the difference? I hope I'm being clear.


No worries, you are being perfectly clear.

I've been operating under the impression the difference between artery and vein was simply a matter of function, size and location. Arteries carry blood from the heat to other parts of the body, are heavier, thicker, normally deal with higher systolic blood pressure, etc. Veins as I understand it carry blood to the heart. The pressure is typically lowr as is the volume. Lastly, arteries have valves, veins do not. The Jugglers, for example are veins.

And there's no doubt in my mind that arterial blockages, restrictions etc., are much more critical than the same in a vein.

cheerleader wrote:The Liberation procedure paper with data on the MS patients treated with venous angioplasty will be online tomorrow-
thanks!
cheer


Thank you. I'm looking forward to it.
Dennis
<em><strong>"It may be of aetiological significance that the sites where plaques were commonly formed are areas where relative vascular insufficiency can be postulated." </strong></em><br />Brownell et. al, Oxford, 1962
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tested CCSVI

Postby judipom » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:13 pm

Hello--I'm in Chapel Hill North Carolina and I would like to get tested for CCSVI. What should I do? Thanks
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Postby iknewit » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:04 pm

These are the steps I've been taking and any advice will be appreciated. I called my Neurologist, right after I read about CCSVI and he was skeptical. I printed the information and took it to my GP. We are discussing everything on December 10th.

I live in Florida. A person in healthcare told me, it will be difficult to find a doctor to do the procedure. Not because the doctor doesn't want to do it; the hospital's won't allow it because of liability.

I think everyone needs to email the cable news organizations. Fox News, CNN, MSNBC (although they did an article in the business section on the Internet). Also e-mail ABC, CBS and NBC. No one in the U.S., other than people with MS, know about this.
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Postby zap » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:44 pm

I wanted to copy and paste this text into the thread, but cannot from this format:

Abrams' angiography: Complications of Venous Stenting

Sadly, several key pages are not reproduced here, but there is plenty to chew on.

(available used on Amazon for $28.94 + $3.99 shipping if you feel like reading the missing pages!)
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Postby ariehs » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:00 pm

Cheerleader, I very much appreciate this thread, as I was just thinking about how little I've found on side effects and complications. Thank you.

... but, to you and everyone else who has had experience with this procedure directly or indirectly, could you tell us about your own experiences in regards to these negative aspects? The list seems scary, but as has been pointed out, these lists always seem so.
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Stenting in the UK

Postby Dovechick » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:17 pm

Jasmine wrote:I just wondered where your husband managed to get his stent surgery? Do you live in the US? I am in the UK but so want to be investigated for this. Do you know how I can? Thanks


There is no one doing this in the UK at present. Our closest treatment centre is in Poland. If you send me a private message I will email you the information I have collected so far.
Michele,  warrior4MS, mother and champion for Ella, the MSer. The solution is out there we just have to ask the right questions.
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Postby Dovechick » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:28 pm

fletchdaf wrote:
I've been operating under the impression the difference between artery and vein was simply a matter of function, size and location. Arteries carry blood from the heat to other parts of the body, are heavier, thicker, normally deal with higher systolic blood pressure, etc. Veins as I understand it carry blood to the heart. The pressure is typically lowr as is the volume. Lastly, arteries have valves, veins do not. The Jugglers, for example are veins.



Denis, :( Veins do have valves, arteries have a muscular wall which works in conjuction with the heart pumping. Here is a link to wiki which explains it really well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vein :)
Michele,  warrior4MS, mother and champion for Ella, the MSer. The solution is out there we just have to ask the right questions.
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Postby ErikaSlovakia » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:01 pm

ariehs wrote:Cheerleader, I very much appreciate this thread, as I was just thinking about how little I've found on side effects and complications. Thank you.

... but, to you and everyone else who has had experience with this procedure directly or indirectly, could you tell us about your own experiences in regards to these negative aspects? The list seems scary, but as has been pointed out, these lists always seem so.

1. Doctors told me about possible complications.
2. I had NO complications at all during, before or after the procedure.
3. I do not feel the stent, I have not had pain because of the stent.

Erika
Day 29 after the procedure in Poland.
As I inject Clexane - I do not feel any complications at all.
Last edited by ErikaSlovakia on Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 7, 09 Doppler Ultras. in Poland, left Jugul. valve problem, RRMS since 1996, now SPMS,
- Nov.3,09: one stent in the left jug. vein in Katowice, Poland, LDN, never on DMDs
- Jan. 19, 11: control venography in Katowice - negative but I feel worse
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Postby ariehs » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:40 am

Erika, Thank you - that is very encouraging!

Dovechick & Jasmine, There may be no one in the UK working on this yet, but that doesn't mean things have to stop there. I've been passing around packages of studies and reports on CCSVI to doctors, surgeons, and radiologists all over where i live. I don't know if this will work for sure, but I think I've helped in pushing some people into organizing a study here. They're the right people with the right access to the right equipment and training. They're interested. Speak to cardiovascular surgeons in your area - especially if they are noted for working with stints.

MY preference would be to deal with doctors who have been working on this for a long time, but if there's a new study starting up here... I'll jump on that!
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not resting on laurels

Postby Dovechick » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:02 am

No indeed Ariehs, I am not resting on any laurels and doing what I can to raise awareness. It may be a good idea to bypass the neurologists in the UK at the moment, but there is no reason why GPs should not be presented with some unrefutable evidence of stenosis. This evidence may shortly be obtainable in the UK and would be a start.
By the way the tubes are stents not stints, although it appears that even medical people don't recognise the difference.
See here:
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/stent.html :wink:
Michele,  warrior4MS, mother and champion for Ella, the MSer. The solution is out there we just have to ask the right questions.
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Postby ariehs » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:47 am

LOL - Thanks for that link, Dovechick. I won't be making that mistake again!
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Postby Chicagoboy23 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:39 am

Hello
Does anybody have the new report from Dr Zamboni??

It was due out, a day or two ago.

Thanks
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