chelation therapy

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby ozarkcanoer » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:22 pm

To everyone who is talking about age and lesions and MRIs : I was suspected of having MS at age age 60. My MRI showed 40 lesions and my neurologist said at my age I should have about 6. Well I didn't believe him that I have MS so I waited a year before getting the confirming lumber puncture. So people over 60 certainly do get MRIs and MS diagnoses. My neuro told me he has diagnosed people even older than I am, people in their 70s !!!

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Chelation.,....NO NO NO !!!!

Postby chiromom1 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:39 pm

I am a health professional a chiropractor with my first degree in nutrition.

Chelation is a great way to assist in absorption of certain nutritional elements like iron for example.

BUT: iron is the main component of hemoglobin - which is the molecule that carries your body's oxygen to it's tissues.

We do not have iron deposits b/c we have too much iron in our blood, we have iron deposits b/c the blood is stagnating in the brain due to poor drainage. becoming aneomic or chelating your bodies iron will simply make you tired and impair other healthy systems in the body.

It is a bad idea, and really high ferratin levels is not our issue, venous stenosis is our issue.
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Postby gainsbourg » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:43 pm

Hi chiromom,

Of course you are right - iron is essential. It gives us energy and is essential for metabolism. It is also essential for healthy nerve function and myelin repair.

The point is, if you have MS, whether your general iron levels are normal, anaemic or in overload you also have abnormal, toxic levels of free iron deposited in your brain and spine sitting there right now as you read this thread.

At present nobody knows why it is there. It may have something to do with venous reflux, it may be the unwanted by product of faulty metabolism, as has been found in other neurological illness, or it could be caused by something else.

MS is basically nerve inflammation. Drugs like Campath may calm this right down. Repairing faulty blood vessels (which presumably restores blood nutrients and oxygen to damaged and inflammed nerves) also seems to help. Other remedies including placebo can also sometimes help, but the inflammation and damage will continue unless we treat the original pathogen, and we still don't know what that is.

The point of chelation is to remove these abnormal iron deposits regardless of what is causing them. Research using pharmaceutrical chelators has had mixed results in removing these deposits from humans (though good results from rodents). Drug companies have little interest in using chelators that have been around for years as there is almost no financial incentive for them to conduct such research.

In the meantime, remember, there is always the natural iron chelator IP6 (rice bran). It does not remove calcium from bones nor iron from red blood cells.


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Postby DanTheMan » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:47 pm

Hello everyone. I am new here so please forgive my intrusion into your conversation.

I have been following many topics for the last couple of months but most interested in both CCSVI and antibiotics. What interested me is, what - if anything - these two treatments have in common. I think the answer might be that the levels of metals in the brain are reduced. I found it interesting that antibiotics (at least some) act as chelates:

<shortened url>


This may explain some of the successes with the antibiotic protocol. It's also interesting that nearly every recommended supplement for this protocol is an acid of some sort - which aides in metal detoxification.

Following this line of thinking, I started to investigate some of the symptoms of various types of metal poisoning. I was astonished to find that my life story began to look like a slow motion aluminum poisoning.

It seems that aluminium is well tolerated by most of us, but this false sense of security has led to aluminum being utilized in many many products that we consume daily. Impaired ability to expel aluminum may also be a factor for some. Maybe it's time to reevaluate what is a safe level for aluminum intake.

I am no chemist so forgive me if this is inaccurate or stated incorrectly, but I have read that high levels of aluminum will deplete copper, and this creates other imbalances, like high iron.

http://www.ithyroid.com/aluminum.htm

So, could aluminum poisoning be at the root?

So many sources of it! I'm just beginning to realize. My kids drink from aluminum juice boxes!

I've been on the Wheldon abx protocol + supplements for 2 months now and I am noticing big improvements. But I'm beginning to think I'm actually aluminum detoxing. The symptoms fit my story so well.
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Postby LR1234 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:45 am

Thanks Dan the Man for the info. If antibiotics chelate that could be the reason why some of my symptoms also diminished being on them. As soon as I had to stop though (due to liver issues) the symptoms (namely numbness) came back.

Maybe once the CCSVI is treated, an antibiotic protocol or the EDTA chelation will make a big improvement.
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Postby gainsbourg » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:51 am

Hi Dan,

Hope those improvements continue!

Good observation about antibiotics. Maybe this is yet another piece of the jigsaw. If I might suggest yet another piece: some of the most successful MS drugs are also anti-cancer (chemotherapy) drugs. These drugs are also very powerful chelators of iron, which maybe partly explains their effectiveness. Unlike IP6 these pharmaceutrical chelators also rob the body of useful iron which leads to the side effect of fatigue.

Cancer cells are greedy for iron compared to healthy cells, and the chelation is thought to contribute to their demise.

With regard to aluminium, this is an example how science thinks it knows better than nature, aluminium being added to most tap water simply to make it look clear. So many "modern" diseases seem to have appeared from nowhere in the wake of metal pollution from flouride and mercury.

LR1234...sorry to hear your liver put a halt to chelation. You have to be very, very careful not to do more harm than good. Nearly all toxic metals are stored in the fat, where it is thought they do little harm. Not only can chelation strain the liver but loosely chelated toxic metals can be redistributed in all the organs, including the brain. For example, alpha lipoic acid and cilantro are sometimes accused of this.

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Postby LR1234 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:31 am

Thanks Gains, Yes I was on the Wheldon protocol, but to be honest my liver has always had issues.
My bilirubin levels have always been really high and the liver enzymes were always on the high side of normal.
When I started taking the antibiotics (and they are quite high strengths) my liver was not happy!.

I have just had my liver tested again (yesterday),
I am just on LDN and supps. Since taking the LDN and supps my last liver test came back with normal bilirubin and no TPO (thyroid antibodies) which had previously been really high. I have also got my serum ferratin levels and iron levels checked as well as Vit D levels so I am looking forward to seeing the results.
Last edited by LR1234 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DanTheMan » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:00 am

gainsbourg
Hope those improvements continue!

Good observation about antibiotics. Maybe this is yet another piece of the jigsaw. If I might suggest yet another piece: some of the most successful MS drugs are also anti-cancer (chemotherapy) drugs. These drugs are also very powerful chelators of iron, which maybe partly explains their effectiveness.


Me too! Thank You. Yes, it is quite a jigsaw. Many cloaked interactions and seemingly conflicting results. The chemo drugs also very interesting.


LR1234
my liver has always had issues


Maybe this has reduced your ability to expel aluminum efficiently?
I have read that eliminating aluminum can be accomplished fairly easily through avoidance and diet.
Apples, cirtic acid can help nearly as well as detox drugs.

http://www.hints-n-tips.com/aluminum.htm

Perhaps you can take a less aggressive approach (w/r/t/ liver) and see what comes of it.
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Iron

Postby Bethr » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:35 am

Great thread! I'm following the iron link also. I was diagnosed with MS in 2008. A month prior to my first and only MS attack I had a blood test because of severe fatigue and it showed much higher than normal iron saturation (62%) and slightly higher than normal ferritin levels. My iron levels and ICP were normal . Other than that I was healthy. My sister also has MS, much more severe than I have it diagnosed 20 years ago. Her doctor has never done a iron saturation test!

It worries me that when doctors do everyday blood tests, they don't test the saturation %. I'd never had a fasting iron test before.

I'm awaiting results (due today), for my iron levels 18 months down the track. My fatigue is so bad now that I hardly cope. The interesting thing is that after they took the blood tests, I had three days of absolutely no fatigue. I felt like I was in my 20's again. Also, when I menstruate I get about a weeks mild relief from the fatigue. I'm also having genetic testing done for hemochromatosis, as a cousin has it.

There is probably many ways iron is distributed and stored in a faulty manner, lets hope we can track down the ways and record what helps us to help each other. Iron is a lot more available to us than it would have been pre-industrialisation. It's put into processed foods (to aid our health of course! - LOL), we use iron skillets to cook with etc etc.

Cheers for all the info.
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Postby Merlyn » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:16 pm

I will let people know the results of my DNA hemochromatosis test. I am in a wheelchair, with primary progressive form of MS. I am of Irish/Scot/French background and have gotten dramatically worse since menopause. I too noticed the day that they took two vials of blood for the test, I felt better. I don't know if this is the answer, but I developed my first symptoms at age 28. Sudden onset of Lhermette's syndrome, and over the next nine years, most of the usual suspect symptoms. Although I have never had optic neuritis.

I also have never had elevated liver enzymes, nor abnormally high ferritin levels. But some of the research suggests that it is the transferrin levels in MS that are abnormal. Have never had that tested. My mother was diabetic when diabetes was very rare, suffered from major mood swings and depression. She committed suicide, but when they did an autopsy they said her dementia was not due to Alzheimer's, there were not the amyloid plaques. Don't know if they checked for iron. But she had many unexplained health problems. And her father was an alcoholic, but the thing I remember about him the most was that he was gray in color. He spent his last years in an insane asylum... made me think of The Bronze Killer where Marie Warder found more than a couple people including her husband's brother locked up due to "issues". How many people are experiencing mental illness due to iron overload?

You know in a weird weird way I am hoping I am homozygous, and not just a carrier. At least I would have a phlebotomy route.
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Postby DanTheMan » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:55 pm

I'm speculating that high iron could be a side-effect of high aluminum levels.

I have read that high levels of aluminum will deplete copper, and this creates other imbalances, like high iron.

http://www.ithyroid.com/aluminum.htm

This could result in a plethera of confusing symptoms as a result of various imbalances that plague our lives.

http://www.drpepi.com/aluminum-poisoning.php
http://www.vitawise.com/Nutritional_Hea ... xicity.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/hemochromatosis/symptoms.htm

I'm beginning to recognize how much aluminum is being utilized in food processing, storage and preparation.

L1234
With regard to aluminium, this is an example how science thinks it knows better than nature, aluminium being added to most tap water simply to make it look clear. So many "modern" diseases seem to have appeared from nowhere in the wake of metal pollution from flouride and mercury


Just trying to get to the root causes. Dealing with side-effects may only bring us short-term benefits if the root cause is not addressed.

Something to think about.
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Postby shye » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:41 pm

LR1234
I had serious liver issues 15 years ago-was not expected to live-too ill for transplant even. Ended up getting myself better with diet and supplements (many supplements, but ones i think were most effective were Silymarin, NAC and ALA). Dr told me she had never helped me, and to keep doing whatever I was doing. Still take these supplements, and do have to be careful with meds, etc, because my liver acts up easily.

My questions: Does your doctor know what causes your liver problems? Have they explored it fully?
AND what antibiotics were you on that caused the recent problems?

(I know you are interested in chelation, and as I said, will keep you informed of that on the chelation thread) but I am also exploring Minoxicyclin (sp?), and intend to talk to my doctor about that when I will be seeing her often as I do the chelation.
So am quite interested in what drugs you reacted to, since I have the liver history also.

thanks
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Postby shye » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:43 pm

Bethr,
Is it important to get a fasting iron test? Mine were okay, but were not done fasting.
Thanks
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Postby shye » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:48 pm

Re: aluminum

I was taking high dose B12 shots for quite a while--using Cyanacoblamin--until I realized it had aluminum in it!! It did help my optic neuritis, eyes, but probably harmed me in other ways.
Then did my research, and now use compounded Methylcobalamin, with no preservatives.

So, if taking B12 CyanoCobalamin shots, will definitely be overloading on aluminum. Amazing that the pharmaceutical companies can get away with this, esp in light of all the worry in past years of aluminum and alzheimer's.
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Postby LR1234 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:00 am

Hi Shye,
I was doing the Wheldon protocol but I over did it a bit. I took doxycycline but only 100mg per day on days when I took the azithromycin which was 250mg. Then flagyl pulsed. I vomited a lot from it all. I have to say though I def had some improvements but lost them when I had to stop.

The dr's think I have Gilbert's syndrome which accounts for the bilirubin but it doesn't account for the other liver enzymes being high.
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