Structural problems in the neck or jaw?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby ozarkcanoer » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:42 pm

:( :(

I am bumping this up because I have daily TERRIBLE TMJ pain and my left jaw pops, my neck hurts and I get fierce headaches. I posted on this when the thread was first started and just let it slip down. I have no TMJ pain in the morning but it increases as the day goes by.

My dentist told me to stop clenching my jaw. How do I do this, LOL? As I mentioned a while back I have had wisdom tooth surgery and many many root canals.

When the TMJ first happened I thought it was just stress and that it would go away.

My dentist also said she could make me a brace for my mouth that I would have to wear ALL THE TIME :( :( . The pain is so bad I am thinking about going ahead with the brace. It is expensive and of course not covered by insurance. Just wanted to see if any newbies might have some thoughts on this thread since I am just miserable.

So, TMJ, is it related to MS and/or CCSVI or totally unrelated ?
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Postby Ana » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:56 am

I have a slight goitre, a problem a lot of Germans in southern Germany share as it is too far from the seaside and they used to eat too less sea fish. My goitre has grown inwards and I read somewhere that it can press on the veins.
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TMJ

Postby Dovechick » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:11 pm

Ella has some symptoms of TMJ, namely the clicking in her jaw when she eats and neck/head ache. The dentist says she grinds her teeth but she is not aware of this.
I don't think this was ever a problem before she was diagnosed with MS. Some questions with no answers at the moment.
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Postby LR1234 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:00 pm

I have TMJ issues.
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Re: Neck injury??

Postby CureIous » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:47 pm

jenf wrote:Hi everyone,
I've been racking my brain trying to fit together the CCSVI pieces as it relates to MS, and my MS more specifically. Yesterday morning, I had an epiphany. My MS presented itself this past January, after a vigorous aerobics routine, followed by a neck injury. Three days later, my double vision started. I was convinced the double vision was as a result of the neck injury, also because I knew nothing of MS at the time. After months of symptoms and several hospital stays, I was finally diagnosed. Funny thing was, I didn't fall into some of the "typical' onset categories. I've never had Epstein Barr; I hadn't been under any stress; there was no virus prior to my symptoms; no family members have MS; the list goes on and on. The ONLY thing was my neck injury. Ironically, the left side of my neck still bothers me. I realize this may be grasping, but I can't help but think it's connected somehow.

As this reseach moves forward, I wonder if the connection to the dots will become clearer? I am convinced CCSVI is the answer, primarily because it FITS. Interesting stuff...


Hi Jen, I was definitely thinking about everyone and jawlines and such abnormalities as relates to respiration, and of course venous flow, our hot topic of the decade. (Well next decade wink wink). Referencing back to the paper posted this morning( http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-9285.html) (and probably talked about long ago in here), "Jugular Venous Reflux", which I feel every person investigating this should print out and read and keep handy. While one doesn't *have* to be an expert on brain stuff, looking up words like "Distal" and "Proximal" and keeping track of all the acronyms like IJV, IJVV, IJVVI, etc etc will help with the shorthand when digesting some of these papers. In fact that paper this morning is great, because it gives pictures, and pipefitters like pictures and drawings and blueprints and such.

That being said, since so much in the paper revolves around different valves and such in the Internal Jugular Veins, and what occurs when those malfunction, stick open, don't shut properly, whole nine yards, well, THAT is something that is a VERY integral part of this discussion. If those itty bitty valves (if they are there) malfunction, OR, are "overcome" by positive pressure by Valsalva-LIKE maneuvers, read: heavy exercise, exertion, among other choice um, "activities", the result can be reflux back into the brain. Nevermind my ramblings, here's a quote from the paper.
(RECAP: IJV=INTERNAL JUGULAR VEIN.
IJVV=IJV VALVE.
IJVVI=IJVV INCOMPETENCE)
In physiologic situations, most frequently encountered reversed pressure gradients result from many Valsalva-like activities which increase intrathoracic pressure.
These activities include coughing,straining to defecate, sexual intercourse, and heavy lifting, etc. During these activities, JVR will occur if the IJVV is incompetent. This transient, episodic venous reflux might impede cerebral venous outflow or transmit back venous pressure into the cerebral venous system [39,40,42–45].
Long-term repeatedly increased pump back pressure by these Valsalva-like activities may damage the venous valves, leading to valve degeneration and eventually incompetence [58,62,63]. This explains the high frequency of IJVVI seen in the elderly [55].
Furthermore, this episodic venous hypertension in the IJV following Valsalva-like activities might be exaggerated by conditions which chronically increase the central venous pressure, such as congestive
heart disease [59,60], tricuspid valve regurgitation [59,60], primary pulmonary hypertension[61], and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease
[61]. Therefore, there is a higher frequency of IJVVI in these conditions


However, beyond a straightforward Valsalva type initiation (remember, Valsalva is basically pushing blood back out of the heart and up the jugs) this can be initiated by external pressures (such as arterial pulsation localized to the vein), and by a number of other diseases (according to the paper) , which contribute to very same valve becoming incompetent, such as: congestive heart disease, pulmonary hypertension, COPD, list goes on, as obviously the thrust of the paper was that brain problems are initiated by reflux. No major earthquake there for us on the boards, but combined with the rest of what we are learning, doesn't bode well for a strict immunity-based modality for MS.

My opinion is, and emboldened with every jot and tittle I run across now, that the neuro community has been beyond incompetent, especially after dumb pipefitter here can read this and *get it*, if for nothing else, their obstinate refusal to even LOOK at anything like this in the past, or for refusing to colloborate with others for the benefit of US and the people they watch degenerate, and HAVE watched degenerate through the years, with nary a thought beyond the AI model. It's disgusting and it REALLY pisses me off the more I learn and read and understand.

Course that's a call to action not spite, but had to toss in a little passion at the same time... Arghhhhhh.

:) Better days ahead.

Mark.

And for posterity, this paper is in the research thread http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-7098.html
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Postby Johnson » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:40 pm

My opinion is, and emboldened with every jot and tittle I run across now, that the neuro community has been beyond incompetent, especially after dumb pipefitter here can read this and *get it*, if for nothing else, their obstinate refusal to even LOOK at anything like this in the past, or for refusing to colloborate with others for the benefit of US and the people they watch degenerate, and HAVE watched degenerate through the years, with nary a thought beyond the AI model. It's disgusting and it REALLY pisses me off the more I learn and read and understand.
I have to agree with that, Mark. This paragraph got my full concurrence.

When I found out that the MS Clinic, Societies, etc., have quietly put CCSVI on a shelf for over a year, I am more than disgusted. I can't even be angry about it. I just dismiss the incurious with contempt.

At this point, I'm not even sure why people are still relying on neurologists to assist us with being liberated. They seem obviously entrenched in what they have known. We need to go around them, and get to the vein guys, who seem to be so matter-of-fact in addressing an obvious pathology.

My own way is not to blame, as that is usually not constructive. I also do not tend to rely on the medicos (including dentists) to be competent. I heard many years ago that one can get through medical school with 51% grades. I'm not sure if that is true, but I have met a lot of doctors who are useless (auto mechanics, too!). There are a lot in any occupation who are useless. Even a garbage man can drive his truck with finesse, and be assiduous in collecting all the garbage - even if it is not in just the right spot. If we can't get out of the MS clinic/neuro box for ourselves now that we have the information we have, we have to look in the mirror.

Doctor, heal thyself
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Postby shye » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:35 pm

Re: TMJ I posted above, and since that posting, have gotten even better!
The neuromuscular dentist had picked up that my atlas was a large part of my pain--it was twisted. My osteopath worked on it, but her work did not help the atlas (she did help decrease the jaw and head pain, but came back within a day or two, so more palliative than actually healing).
But the new chiropractor has been very helpful--and when I went to her 10 days ago with info on CCSVI, she was more than receptive (her sister has MS, so she was more enthusiastic than most would be I think)--anyway, I asked her to please focus on the atlas, which we had not been alble to resolve (she had resolved other problems I had), and EUREKA!! For ist time in 30 years, no pain from Atlas !!! She slightly altered how she adjusted the neck area. (had been in a # of head and neck accidents). This adjustment has lasted for 10 days so far, good for me c onsidering my record of not holding adjustments. I am thinking clearer than ever, and assume my veins and arteries are not as compressed, so blood flow has be be better.
If you look at some of the MRI's posted, I think it looks like one of the bony projections that is pressing could be the edge of the Atlas. I know mine was pressing badly into that junction you can feel under the ear, area between edge of skull and edge of jaw, and causing much pain (iso the pain not just at center spine right under skull). I can now move head to both sides with no restriction!!!
I think with all the work being done by my neuromuscular dentist to move my jaw from class II malocclusion to normal, and with this incredible work by this chiropractor I am moving into wellness not known for years!
I had just read about orthogonal atlas machine, just when I had gotten this work 10 days ago by the chiropractor. If her work continues to hold, there is no need for me to see an orthogonal chiropractor, but for anyone not wanting to go thru the manual adjustments (which are hit and miss with your usual chiro I've been to a number, and never got results before the amazing woman I see now) there is a machine that does the adjustment. Curious, I called the one here in NYC that Montel Williams apparently used with such success. Dr Kerr charges around $400 for ist visit, 125 for each follow-up. He was very helpful-did say you could correct the atlas with adjustments, but that lots of people don't want to go thru that stress. Worth checking the web for info on orthogonal.
Sorry this is so long--but TMJ is a real problem with MS I think, and I am being helped GREATLY by getting it correct, along with other neck problems.
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Postby Ruthless67 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:49 pm

shye,

I looked into an orthogonal chiropractor in the Napa, CA area and found one in Petaluma which isn't too far but they don't take insurance. I forget right now what he charged, but it was more than I could afford out of pocket, especially at this time of year. And of course he's not "in network" so even if insurance would cover some of it, it wouldn't be enough.....I'll talk to my regular chiro and show him your post and see what he has to say. Maybe he could speak with your chiro for some suggestion?

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Re: Neck injury??

Postby reg613 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:39 pm

CureIous wrote:
jenf wrote:Hi everyone,
I've been racking my brain trying to fit together the CCSVI pieces as it relates to MS, and my MS more specifically. Yesterday morning, I had an epiphany. My MS presented itself this past January, after a vigorous aerobics routine, followed by a neck injury. Three days later, my double vision started. I was convinced the double vision was as a result of the neck injury, also because I knew nothing of MS at the time. After months of symptoms and several hospital stays, I was finally diagnosed. Funny thing was, I didn't fall into some of the "typical' onset categories. I've never had Epstein Barr; I hadn't been under any stress; there was no virus prior to my symptoms; no family members have MS; the list goes on and on. The ONLY thing was my neck injury. Ironically, the left side of my neck still bothers me. I realize this may be grasping, but I can't help but think it's connected somehow.

As this reseach moves forward, I wonder if the connection to the dots will become clearer? I am convinced CCSVI is the answer, primarily because it FITS. Interesting stuff...


Hi Jen, I joined the site because of your post.

Your observations are very interesting. I've been hoping someone would weigh in with the neck injury issue.

My belief is that babies have their necks injured in bad birth. My son had a forceps delivery and all sorts of horrible unnatural intervention. I am writing a website about his case. He was like you... very observant and intuitive. Never believed the quacks!

I think your situation brings up the most compelling clue so far. Can you offer any more on it?

Somewhere on this site someone mentioned that embryologists were giving their two cents worth on the topic. This I fear could be a red herring. The medical profession (for what it is) is terrified birth issues are going to be looked at. However, these injuries are not happening in the womb but during birth because of liver (iron) disrupting drugs like demerol and the yanking and twisting of forceps. Not to mention cutting the cord when all the blood is in it (stem cells) and not the baby.

Natural childbirth would cut down on lots of stem cells so they don't want to interfere with the interventionist birthing style going on now.

I think there are those who know exactly what's what. MS is a created mystery, I bet you.
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Postby catfreak » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:45 pm

I have TMJ also!! So bad I have lost some teeth from grinding til they broke. I have been wearing an orthotic for 13 years at night.

TMJ started first, then headaches then MS symptoms then ear problems....... most of you could finish my story, right??

Cat
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9/3/09 Stanford - Dr Dake - Stent in R-J to unblock Arachnoid Cyst in Sigmoid Sinus. Stent in narrowed L-J. Balloon in narrowing where R & L Jugulars meet.
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Postby Johnson » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:19 pm

catfreak wrote:I have TMJ also!! So bad I have lost some teeth from grinding til they broke. I have been wearing an orthotic for 13 years at night.

TMJ started first, then headaches then MS symptoms then ear problems....... most of you could finish my story, right??

Cat


Oh yes... For me, it took 17 years from the first signs of TMJ at 15. * years later, it was night sweats, 8 years later, head aches (300 Aspirin a month), jaw aches, neck cramps... 8 years later, optic neuritis + and, "looks like MS".

Sleep apnea, wisdom teeth, too much sleep, not enough sleep, voice problems, swallowing problems, speech problems, hearing problems, what else? It all points to (from my hazy perspective) the neck. Now we know (at least, I am convinced), the jugulars. I had a thought for a long time that my Eustachian tubes were blocked. I mentioned that to ENT after neuro, after GP, after chiro, and anyone who had the misfortune to meet my curious mind. I think that I was intuiting that it was all in my neck.
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Postby reg613 » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:58 am

Johnson wrote:
My opinion is, and emboldened with every jot and tittle I run across now, that the neuro community has been beyond incompetent, especially after dumb pipefitter here can read this and *get it*, if for nothing else, their obstinate refusal to even LOOK at anything like this in the past, or for refusing to colloborate with others for the benefit of US and the people they watch degenerate, and HAVE watched degenerate through the years, with nary a thought beyond the AI model. It's disgusting and it REALLY pisses me off the more I learn and read and understand.
I have to agree with that, Mark. This paragraph got my full concurrence.

When I found out that the MS Clinic, Societies, etc., have quietly put CCSVI on a shelf for over a year, I am more than disgusted. I can't even be angry about it. I just dismiss the incurious with contempt.

At this point, I'm not even sure why people are still relying on neurologists to assist us with being liberated. They seem obviously entrenched in what they have known. We need to go around them, and get to the vein guys, who seem to be so matter-of-fact in addressing an obvious pathology.

My own way is not to blame, as that is usually not constructive. I also do not tend to rely on the medicos (including dentists) to be competent. I heard many years ago that one can get through medical school with 51% grades. I'm not sure if that is true, but I have met a lot of doctors who are useless (auto mechanics, too!). There are a lot in any occupation who are useless. Even a garbage man can drive his truck with finesse, and be assiduous in collecting all the garbage - even if it is not in just the right spot. If we can't get out of the MS clinic/neuro box for ourselves now that we have the information we have, we have to look in the mirror.

Doctor, heal thyself


THIS IS the right attitude boys! If there's one thing that irks me it's when people say "my" neuro this, and "my" osteo that. These drs do not care about you!

If there's anything to be done about this, it lies in the MS sufferer him or herself. It's a real drag that all medical equipment is housed in hospitals and universitiies. So how to get at it, as well as the training to know how to operate it? Training is just training, you simply need to be exposed to it. It isn't a sign of utter brilliance as the neuros would have us believe.

I'm all for lobbying in full force for access to equipment and someone trained to use it. Without all the power games and exploitation.

I think there are two camps of MS people. Those who really believe in the medical community and are grateful for all the drugs they get to try and those who absolutely distrust them and smell a big rat.

See we are up against a big popular culture obstacle here. Somehow along with all this medical shamming, the attitude was also implanted that people musn't "get angry." Anger or frustration has been demonized as politically incorrect or a sign of mental illness, so we stop in our tracks when we want to say something perfectly reasonable and in our own defence. It has become pavlovian.

If you think about it, you'll see what has happened is that the patient is expected to feel sorry for the doctor. There is a lot of propaganda out there that creeps into this i.e. doctor studies hard, doctor is from a disadvantaged group, doctor is overworked, doctor walks around with the burden of genuis etc.

This, I believe is the place to start in this battle. We have to say, "I don't simply submit to you because I have to get you to like me and not be rejected. I don't have to submit to everything you say because I have to prove my sanity through political correctness. "

There is a huge problem here. The medical industry has an agenda that we know little about. Their goal is cosmetic surgery, stem cells and organ transplant. It's hip and cool and the stuff of a new edgy breed. Everything is about image and human worth triage.

People are getting MS because in this new medicine, babies are getting injured at birth, people are getting dangerous things done to them like root canals, exercise mania is advertized as healthy, and drugs drugs drugs causing all sorts of secondary issues.

American Idol is no accident. This is a climate of "get my approval or die."
reg613
 

Postby shye » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:34 pm

Reg 613
I was injured badly (liver) from an MD treating my chronic fatigue (guess what, it turned out to be MS, NOT chronic fatigue--and this dr was aware that I had had optic neutitis). In trying to treat my liver, went from Dr to Dr,--I won't relay the further damage they did--but I finally woke up.
I found an osteopathic Dr willing to think outside the box, and use allopathic doctors only for diagnosis (such as for the MS). But I will not take their meds, and treat myself via diet, supplements, osteo work, chiropractic work. I do my research now, as fully as I am capable of. And I do okay.
I think, particularly with this new ccsvi info, we need to see that traditional allopathic medicine is all about medicine, and about keeping it there. We need to fight for this new view of MS to be accepted.
Just this thread alone is of help--how many of us did not link the Raynaud's to our MS? And more importantly, how many of our Drs didn't?
We need to get a whole new take on this disease.
I am caught up in some real time absorbing problems right now, but keeping notes, so when freer, will start some threads here that will try to connect a lot of the dots for us.
Others seem to be doing likewise.
So keep researching, keep posting, and we will all be helped.
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Postby shye » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:42 pm

Ruthless 67,
I'll see my chiro on Thurs--will mention your request.
But your chiro, if good, should be able to analyze your neck for the Atlas and CI problem--in my experience with a number of different chiro's, some are more proficient than others, both in determining the problem and then in the actual manipulation--and I do think a lot of them are actually leery of neck problems; it is a manipulation that if done wrong,
can cause real problems.
That is why the orthoganal machine is used.

send me a pm if you ddod want to make the contact with my chiro.
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Postby Sharon » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:45 pm

The following is a link to an article in the Dynamic Chiropractor - notice the date of the article -- Year 2003. I posted this many months ago when we were first talking about CCSVI on TIMS. There are two parts - be sure to look at each. You may want to print a copy and take with you to your chiropractor -- I did, and I also took a copy of Zamboni's research. My chiropractor was on the phone with Dake within days. Of course this was early on in the Spring of 2009. Your chiro may be aware of CCSVI now.

http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpac ... hp?id=9049
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpac ... hp?id=9148

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