Identical twins?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Identical twins?

Postby marcstck » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:33 am

Someone sent me an e-mail in response to my recent blog post regarding CCSVI which asked an interesting question. The incidence of MS in both identical twins is only about 30%. If the vascular abnormalities seen in CCSVI are congenital, shouldn't the incidence be much higher?

Anyway, thought I'd open this up to the assembled group. I suppose that if CCSVI is the result of vascular abnormalities in conjunction with some other element (infectious, environmental, etc.), this could explain the discrepancy.

Just thought this might be an interesting thought exercise...
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Postby whyRwehere » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:16 am

It is interesting. When one twin has MS, do they give the other one an MRI? I would like to know the results of identical twins both having MRVs. Are their veins going to be identical?
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Postby frodo » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:20 am

To have identical DNA doesn't imply to be absolute identical. A problem during pregnancy could affect one of the twins and not the other (sometimes even one can die and the other survives)
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Postby Robnl » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:33 am

Don't forget the environmental influences; like Vitamin d (sunlght) and Eppstein Barr virus. Muti factor, remember?? CCSVI plays big role, but it is not the only factor in MS

So, apart from the DNA, which is almost exactly in identical twins the influences do or do not 'pull the trigger'. But the chances are higher....

Rob
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Postby jr5646 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:02 am

Interesting topic, Marc...

I've been accused that my posts are too long, so I'll try to keep this brief :)

Maybe the defect is purely a physical one and not genetic at all, possibly due to womb position? Who knows, maybe the fetus / baby gets all twisted up in there and the veins don't develop properly????

My 2nd child was born breach (it was a real bitch flipping his butt around).. Hopefully, he doesn't have any malformed veins !


I know we all want to get better, but if we can prevent MS from occurring in the first place would be huge...

Breech birthFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Certain factors can encourage a breech presentation. Prematurity is likely the chief cause. Twenty five percent of fetuses are in the breech position at 32 weeks gestation; this drops to three percent at term. The increasing size of the fetus near term traps the fetus into the head down position normally. Pregnancies ending in preterm birth simply recruit more breeches before they can turn to head down. Factors predisposing to term breech presentation include:
multiple (or multifetal) pregnancy (twins, triplets or more)
abnormal volume of amniotic fluid: both polyhydramnios and oligohydramnios
fetal anomalies: hydrocephaly, anencephaly and other congenital abnormalities
uterine abnormalities
prior Cesarean section[1]
It is postulated that the baby normally assumes a head down presentation because of the weight of the baby's head. As the mass of the fetal head is the same as that of the pelvis, it is more likely that the enlarging fetus is more and more restricted in its movements, and simply becomes entrapped. The shape of the uterus is a more likely determinant of the final fetal presentation as uterine shape anomalies are strong predictors of breech presentation and other malpresentations.


Congenital disorder involves defects in or damage to a developing fetus. It may be the result of genetic abnormalities, the intrauterine (uterus) environment, errors of morphogenesis, or a chromosomal abnormality. The outcome of the disorder will further depend on complex interactions between the pre-natal deficit and the post-natal environment.[1] Congenital disorders vary widely in causation and abnormalities. Any substance that causes birth defects is known as a teratogen. The older term congenital [1] disorder does not necessarily refer to a genetic disorder despite the similarity of the words.
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Postby sou » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:09 am

Hi.

Genes and DNA are just the recipes. The final product depends on the cook, the execution, the raw material etc. Perhaps, the presence of the babies inside the same uterus during the exact same period could be of equal importance.

sou
Shortest joke: "We may not be able to cure MS but we can manage its symptoms."
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Re: Identical twins?

Postby mose » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:43 am

Type 1 diabetes is 50% in identical twins.
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Postby zap » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:47 am

Twins can have separate placentas or share a placenta unequally, potentially, in either case, abnormalities in the placenta can result in developmental birth defects in one twin.

on edit: plus identical twins aren't really identical, even genetically:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -identical

And epigenetic changes (even in the womb) can drive them further apart:

http://multiples.about.com/od/funfacts/ ... ttwins.htm
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Postby Cece » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:17 pm

Since the consensus document (phlebology) has many experts agreeing the CCSVI is a congenital vascular malformation, it would be interesting to see some twin studies done. I would be surprised if one twin would have perfect veins and the other the CCSVI-style malformed veins. Maybe both would have abnormal veins but only one would have it bad enough to end up with ms.
"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition
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Postby bestadmom » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:13 pm

My coworker's father and his identical twin brother have ms. I'd love to see their veins!
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Postby bluesky63 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:25 pm

I looked briefly for incidence of congenital malformations in identical twins.

Didn't have much time but I saw this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1931855/

It's from 1957 and the language is awful but it makes it clear that it's not at all unusual for identical twins to vary in having or expressing congenital issues. here's one quick quote:

"The occurrence of discordant MZ twins attests to the role of non-genetic factors in the etiology of CHD. Morison (1949) believes that at an early embryonic stage twins compete with one another for nutrition and, as a consequence, one of them may suffer from a transitory lack of nutrition, which in turn leads to the occurrence of a malformation."

This one's all right, from 1970: "Congenital Malformations in Twins"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez
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Postby thisisalex » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:33 am

bestadmom wrote:My coworker's father and his identical twin brother have ms. I'd love to see their veins!


it would be very interesting to get them examined, couldnt you bring them to a CCSVI aware research place?
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etiology of CCSVI

Postby aliyalex » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:42 am

i understand that opportunistic infections including viruses, bacteria and protozoa can attach to the DNA and change it. i've heard it described as, "we become them." i know so many people who improved on antibiotics and antimicrobials and concurrently decreasing heavy metals.

i am personally convinced that i have venous stenosis. this filled in the missing piece for me. i have been clearing "environmental" toxins, including heavy metals.

when i went on abx i couldn't detox the dead bodies fast enough. often people with chronic illness have a difficult time detoxing. i no longer sweat. what happened next convinced me of the etiology of my MS. the same neuro symptoms appeared until i could slowly! clear them. i had to stop the abx. now i am on herbal antimicrobials, which are gentler.

i was not surprised when some of Dr Z's patients restenosed. i was sad, though. When i started LDN, it worked for 8 months. then something overwhelmed it. i suspect it could be the same thing that causes the restenoses. Aliyah
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Postby bestadmom » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:24 am

Thisisalex,

I am hoping that once there are readily available diagnostic locations for CCSVI testing, that my co-worker can convince her dad and uncle to get tested. We're not quite there yet, but think it will be possible within a few months.

Unfortunately, the father is content with his lot in life and isn't searching for any answers re MS. The uncle is more proactive.
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Postby Cece » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:45 pm

Bestadmom, hopefully the more proactive uncle will find himself treatment, and the brother will follow. Though I would think if they presented themselves as possible research subjects they might find a receptive audience!
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